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CIA Secret Prisons - Torture - Page 3

I hate to be narcissic but if it wasn't for Amnesty, this would never have been brought up.

That said how can anyone justify torture?

How can you say you are fighting for freedom when you are using the same tactics as your enemy?

The terrorists can use this as a great PR stunt. Did Bush think of that?

Torture Prisons Secret CIA

I can easily justify torture. If someone kidnaps my child, and I know exactly who it is, I will torture him, without mercy, until he tells me where my child is.

The same justification is there for military and intelligence events. An officer, in the field, has a captured enemy officer. Thanks to other sources of information, they know that a major supply dump is nearby, but they can't find it. They also know that there is a plan to explode the supply dump, as soon as the military is in a place where it can be wiped out by that action. I WANT the officer to torture the enemy, to get that information.

Suppose that you lived in Los Angeles, and there was knowledge of these things.

1. A terrorist group has a nuclear weapon
2. They have set it up to go off somewhere in Los Angeles
3. You have a ranking person within that terrorist group
4. You have less than 24 hours to find the bomb and disable or destroy it

Isn't torture justified?

Quoting Amnesty International and its attempts to change the world doesn't carry any weight at all with me.

As for how we can say we are fighting for freedom when we are using the same tactics as the enemy - what else do you expect us to do? They can, and do, use torture extensively. They slowly saw off the heads of innocent people, just for the fun of it. They understand, and respect, torture and other forms of physical domination. They mock Amnesty International, and all the other pacifists who would rather give up their freedom than fight for it.

How can you say you support freedom anywhere, when you aren't willing to do anything to protect it?

CIA Secret Prisons - Torture History & Civil Business Politics

Torture is not needed to protect freedom. Torture has proven an ineffective means of deriving information for hundreds of years. Torture ensured that every single person accused of being a witch confessed, that every Templar confessed to being Satan worshippers. History supports that these were false confessions. Psychologists around the world for decades have proven time and again that torture is not an effective means of getting information, thus it is not justified in any sense of the word, and there are no scientific facts to say other wise.

That being said, recently, a big finally passed through senate that gave our government legal rights to torture. List below are just a few things this "compromise bill" allows.

1. Extreme physical pain, as long as disability or death are not the result.
2. Extreme psychological pain.
3. Secret CIA prisons, can hold without charges if thought "appropriate"
4. Military tribunals for anyone, including US citizens, charged as a terrorist.
5. The use of "secret classified" information against defendants, while preventing them from seeing the evidence because its classified.
6. Prevention of calling upon the Geneva convention if charged with terrorism.

Yes, its now legal, hope everyone of you that thought this was justified are happy with it. We are now legally the same countries that we are against. We can now spy on our own people, black bag our own people, torture our own people, try them outside our laws, all if they are charged with being a terrorist or domestic terrorist. Welcome to "V for Vendetta" people!

What made you think that we would not move towards this when the Patriot Act was passed? What made you think that things would only before non-us citizens? And what makes you think that this will not spread to other types of crimes in the future? Anyone who is ok with this has some serious explaining to do, you can't possibly think the legal black bagging of people off to cia secret prisons with no charges is a good think. While they use terminology that implies non citizens, the bill doesn't make that distinction. This is a shameful butcher of the Geneva Convention, and worse, the Constitution of the United States. George Orwell just rolled over in his grave!

Page 3 Torture Prisons Secret CIA

You are right, torture to gain a confession is useless. All it does is create false confessions.

However, in certain situations, it does work. That is what I was talking about.

I am thrilled with the passing of that bill. Now there are specific guidelines. Before, someone yelling at a person could be, and was, considered torture by some people.

Torture Prisons Secret CIA

Konq, while disturbing, I think these laws just provide impunity for US torture. It's not like the CIA cares less about what anyone thinks of their methods. If you survey the world on who they regard as the worst terrorist group, after Al Quaeda would come the CIA.

Secret camps have been around for ages, even citizens of countries like Australia and the UK have been illegally apprehended by US agents for crimes they did not commit. Nobody is safe of a paranoid superpower desperate to hold secure its power.

Nigthhawk, I find it interesting you must use the most extreme example possible to try and justify these new laws. The thought that someone could nuke the US is absurd and scaremongering at its most extreme. Let's not forget who the only country to ever use one of these weapons is. I'll give you a clue, it ain't Al Quaeda.

I believe that by condoning torture, which is never useful for intelligence gathering, you sink to the same level of the terrorists. In effect, ANYONE who uses torture/terror, including the CIA, M16 or ASIO, is a TERRORIST. There is no debate about this whatsoever. The big difference is that they are Western terorrists who hurt people we don't care about or like. But with these new laws it appears even that is about to change.

CIA Secret Prisons - Torture

Ok, we actually have a thread about torture, so lets keep the torture discussion to that thread and not this one. This is about secret CIA prisons. The question is are they legal and should they be used. I think we all agree that CIA secret prisons are perfectly fine when used against non-americans to protect us. The problem is that it is now allowed to be used against US citizens. Its not that I think Bush will use it against me this year or next, the fact is that it CAN be used against us now. Simple scenario to show you where this can go. Being that Islam is primarily an extremist religion, it is deemed that if you are Islamic, you can be questioned for domestic terrorism. Once that blows over and people settle down and accept it, something else happens. Protesters for and against gay marriage get a little out of hand. Christians and atheists are "bagged" and taken away on suspicion of "domestic terrorism" as it is so broadly defined in the Patriot Act. Now, a simple disagreement on beliefs that got out of hand has put people that are US citizens in the secret prisons. Are you now ok with it, or is it something different now? You have to think of what it CAN be used as, not what it will be used as tomorrow.

CIA Secret Prisons Torture - Page 3

I think the use of torture is central to the discussion of secret prisons. If CIA run prisons never used torture and were perceived to treat suspects well, would we be having this discussion?

CIA secret prisons cannot be legal unless they are being used with the permission of the authorities where they are located. There are many secret prisons all over the world in which Government's deny they have permission to exist. This has been revealed lately in Eastern Europe.

News Top Al Qaeda Figures Held in Secret CIA Prisons

I don't agree with this at all. Why should non-Americans be treated any differently to Americans? You have to remember, a lot of the people detained in these prisons are later released. The presumption is that they are obviously innocent or not useful to CIA investigations. An American life is no more valuable than any other, so therefore the same principles should apply to all. The moment we start treating Americans, or anyone else, above others is when we become as bad as the terrorists.

Another point I would make about secret prisons, how can we possibly know whether they are being used to protect us, or for more sinister purposes? If you look at the history of secret prisons around the world, you will find they are often used to deal with political activists or other innocents who don't agree with the prevailing government. China, Iraq (under Saddam) and the Soviet Union are perfect examples of this. I have no doubt CIA run prisons are not purely for suspected terrorists. If it was a matter of locking up the bad boys, why would they need to be secret?

Bush has enacted legislation to "legalise" the use of torture in these prisons. But all that really does is protect the torturers, not the people. This is a disturbing trend. Basically, Bush has said in writing it is alright to do what we"ve been doing for years, but with impunity. He is encouraging the use of torture in prisons. What is as disturbing about the legislation is the use of military tribunals, ignoring the Geneva Convention and the ability to hold prisoners without charge, which is what they have been doing at Guantanamo Bay. But this legislation is not disturbing because it can screw over Americans, its disturbing because it takes away the basic human rights of people. It shouldn't matter where they came from or what the justification is.

CIA Secret Prisons Torture Politics Business Civil & History - Page 3

I have to tell you that the main reason I have a problem with this is that it is "legal" to use these tactics against US Citizens. And it matters allot because enemies of a country do not get the same rights as its citizens. No country has ever given outsiders the same rights as their own citizens. Citizen ship implies special privileges in a country, because it is your country, you aren't from some where else, so your intentions are necessarily going to be for the benefit of your country for the most part.

CIA Secret Prisons only became an issue to me when citizens can now be held there. According to our laws, a citizen cannot be held without charge, a phone call, or a lawyer. These prisons by pass those laws completely, making them illegal, no matter what laws are in place to allow them, they are illegal in my eyes. Torture is wrong, and if its taken care of, then secret prisons aren't a problem. But torture doesn't just take place in secret prisons, especially now, so secret prisons don't directly relate to torture since torture is now legal. Which is very sad in this country!

What it comes down to is that if you want to "leave the door open" to put your own people in secret prisons and torture your own citizens, then you aren't really trying to prevent terror at all, your trying to control your population, the dream of every government!