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Russians Storm Berlin - Page 2

It makes sense, Steve.

"According to the author", indeed.

Did you read Ilya Ehrenburg? I did. Probably, missed his calls to rape, murder and torture.

Stalin was not in a habit of fuming and exploding. He was actually well known for his soft tone ansd ability to stay calm and mysteriously all-knowing - it was one of his know-how that paralized and terrified his surrounding.

The last sentence is plain ridiculous.
What "irrefutable evidence" are we talking about?
To me it would mean, that "in many towns and villages" every single female from 10 to 80 was medically examined to prove she was raped.
May I ask, who performed those examinations? Can you imagine the lines of females waiting for them?
Who put the age frames of the victims?
So a random wild Soviet soldier actually asked if a girl was 9 or 10 before jumping at her?
Was it some kind of an order the soldiers got? "Have them all, from 10 to 80"?
If not, how about natural stoppers that would hardly allow you to rape a little girl?
Were 70 year olds so irresistible appealing?
If you unleash yourself, you go and have whom you want, on the bodily level, sort of. I strongly doubt old German ladies were on great demand, really.

Berlin Storm Russians

How about testimony?
_________________________
The sentences could be ridiculous but the facts are not.
No smoke without fire.
I said never heard of major incident when the Soviet Army crossed romanian territory but that not mean they weren't.

A raped woman would have made all possible to hide.

If she would get to denounce the rape would have possibilities:

1)The soldiers denied ever seen before and probably would laugh on her. (At that time there was not genetical test and have to wait 9 month ).The testimony of the soldiers would have been far more credible (two or more against one).

2)She would become (specially in the rural area) subject of talking through the people of her community for all his life, which would ruin his reputation.
If she were a young unmarried girl probably his boy friend would let her, and if she were mother this would affect the life of his children.
So she prefer not to talk and to abort illegally.

Besides:
To denounce this kind of facts against Soviet Army (specially without proofs) would easily mean you are an enemy.
You know under communists there wasn't a free press and every "non constructive" affirmation would mean you are against the system.
They were very good in to turn the evidence against you and this we have seen some years after, when the communist authority of the country took the private lands to build a cooperative system, and many countryman who refused to get his horses and his land to common use, finished in deportation as rebels.

I no doubt that for discipline reason, to restore order, ( and give an example) somebody would had been shoot for stealing some fruit from a private garden but I think the discipline were more important than to give reason to a raped german woman which have no proof.
Besides:
If they noticed this practice was benefit for troops moral, for sure Stalin agree with (even in mysterious silence) but... I don't think this was made for revenge.

The americans entering Paris did it also but they probably had enough charm, cigarettes and good chocolate not to rape.

The problem is why this is made public now?

Russians Storm Berlin History & Civil Business Politics

Steve, you're totally right about the reasons why a victim might be unwilling to reveal the crime. But there is a difference between "a woman" who, yes, could be afraid of everything you wrote, exactly because she'd been outed, and "the women", who appear in that lame sentence.

Let me remind it to you:

What this mass orgies has to do with "a raped woman" from your post?
According to this fantastic sentence, EVERY female was raped! In MANY villages and towns!
This gets the number of victims to several hundreds thousands - they all were silent?
They probably were not, since the same sentence suggests some "irrefutable evidence".

So, there were some several thousands of victims of rape, in many places, who did not actually hide what happened, everybody knew what was going on - still everybody let it go?
Then, during the war (ALL of them were so incredibly afraid? ALL, from raped women to town officials and heads of goverment?), years and years after the war (okay, East Germany was silent, supposedly, because it was a socialist country, but why West Germany didn't say a word? It would be a great argument to use against the USSR during the Cold War), so only now some kind soul decided to enlighten us how it really was?
It is strange, to say the least.

Suppose they were NOT, indeed?
According to this logic, it's possible to accuse any random passer-by in anything.
"I never heard of you sleeping with my wife, but it doesn't mean you don't do it" - how is that?
You cannot plead guilty without giving proves. Rape is a crime. Mass rape is even more serious crime. It should not be driven to the level of a random gossip.
You can't just throw a serious accusation and shield yourself with no smoke without fire

My grandfather, quite young, was killed in spring 1944 in Europe, where he came to -yes! - free it from fascism, as he thought. Are you telling me he raped left and right, too? Are you telling me those now old people I know, those who came to our school to talk about war, those who cry on May 9 - they all are rapers and thieves?
I will NEVER believe it, and if you insisit on it give me serious proves, please.

To say it again, war is a hard thing, quite often without rules, everything happens.
I do not say each and every Soviet soldier was a model gentleman, but I do not want to see more of this unproven accusations thrown in faces of thousands of thousands people who formed the Soviet Army.

Edited: Klausse on 10th Mar, 2006 - 11:52am

Page 2 Berlin Storm Russians

This is not a Court.
We are talking about the facts that happens many years ago most of the victims are probably dead and his aggressors also.
Somebody wright a book, probably hope to sell well and make some money.
For this purpose he advertise his book with "russians with revenge in their mind".
In my opinion were NOT ALL RUSSIAN, and have not to be blamed an entire army.
I am myself curious to read it and to see how irrefutable evidence he found.
Not for a revenge, and not for hate because I believe that who made those crimes paid or have to pay in their earthly life even before our Father's Judgement.
I strongly believe this.
My curiosity is who were they, which was (is) their psychological profile and how developed their lives?

I have a pious respect for all that fall both side, and I explain way.

My uncle fall in Ukraine when the romanian troops entered the war, against URSS.
He probably died with a sense of duty in his mind because he believed he do the right think, for liberate Moldavia which was a romanian territory.
His brother survived and after 23 August 1944, when the insurrection took place, fight german till Cechoslovakia, aside with Soviet Army.
I wonder if they, as a human been, had another possibility to choose.
They did not.
When the order came they had only to pack suitcases and follow their regiment.
They were soldiers.

I can not give you strong evidences about what happened in Romania.

But I can tell you a story, about a woman I know (is still living) who was hidden in neighbourhood.
Some weeks before the Russian came the major of the village received information about this and orders to instruct the civilians how to behave: to be friendly, not to expose offensive materials, etc, etc, and "¦to hide woman and young girls and so he did.
To the house of this woman (young girl then), came two russian (probably sent in recognition).
They entered the house asking djeluchka, djeluchka, and when they found his old gran mother said is chiornaia and entered in the cellar where they found a barrel of wine.
They drunk wine and departed and all the people of the village made fun of what happened.

So I say if that order has been done, somebody (maybe from Intelligences) would know something.
This is not an evidence of corse, and this is not a Court as I said, but I know my people, they never invented a story did not happened.

One think:
You said are looking for friends. Maybe you found them, but there is not a true friend ho tell you "if there is no evidence did not happened".

Have a nice week end.