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No Tax! - Page 2

The problem at the other end of this, is that the TRULY wealthy people, like John and Teresa Kerry, don't have any income. They live on "old" money. They may have some interest income, or some return on investment, but that is all they pay taxes on. So, their massive fortunes are exempt from taxation, while the family that is working very hard to make something, and is very productive, gets taxed tremendously. This is especially true of the small business owner who has a sole proprietorship, and is paying all of his employees, their taxes, all the regulatory stuff, advertising, etc, out of his own pocket. Yes, a lot of that is deductable, but rarely at a 1:1 rate. So, they get hit much harder than someone who earns the same amount.

Then, as Unferth noted, governments "nickle and dime" us all with hidden and sundry taxes. There are also all sorts of regulatory fees and assessments that are actually taxes in fact, if not in name.

Right now, with the income tax on top of the sales taxes on top of the corporate taxes, the poor are the hardest hit, even if they don't pay any income tax.

(Hopefully, that last line is inflammatory enough to spark some more debate )

Tax No

I absolutely don't agree with this at all. I don't think it is anyone's right to redistribute wealth in such a way. After all, that is supposed to be the "American Dream" that you can come to the US and make your fortune. It isn't right to prevent that, in my opinion. Also, it has been shown time and again that this really hurts the poor. When you eliminate tax benefits for charitable giving, charitable giving drops for example. The poor truly do benefit from the generosity of the rich. They may not choose to give it to the Federal government for distribution, but many wealthy people will give far more in charitable contributions than they are willing to give away in taxes.

Also, when you reduce the benefit to hard work by taxing so heavily that there is not true financial benefit to earning more, society begins to fail. This is what you see in communist nations.

That old money is still generating a good deal of new money. They pay taxes on that. We can't make laws directed at the rich because each time we do, it is the poor or middleclass that actually get hurt the most. I think this will be the case with any "spending" tax as well. Capital Gains tax is a perfect example. We hear about how this is a tax for the rich and shouldn't be cut. Well, when you sell your home, you may not be rich but a capital gain is realized. Used to be you were penalized heavily for this. Fortunately, in the US, this is no longer the case, but it is an example where a law targeting the wealthy hurt the middleclass citizen far more than the wealthy. They can afford the tax, but the middleclass person really can't.

Edited: funbikerchick on 13th Apr, 2005 - 11:59am

No Tax! History & Civil Business Politics

Societies and civilizations have risen and fallen throughout history, it is a cycle not a simple lineal progression. Compare with our own the latter history of the Western Roman Empire before it fell and you will seeking striking similarities.

Welfare systems have never kept people out of poverty, indeed they cannot because they violate the laws by which wealth is created. One need only look to those places in the world and in history where free enterprise has resisted the encroaching state successfully to see this truth.

I am not sure many people in the USA would agree that their taxes were low Indeed burgeoning taxation has been a sign of sickness and failure in society throughout time.

Perhaps it isn't so much a question of balance as it is of principle? Let's stop trying to find balances and actually find out what the principles are. The best services of course are those that the government has no hand in at all.

Britain - or that is to say, the British Government - is actually not investing in you but taking someone else's money and redistributing it. You may be happy to pay taxes but some people are not and yet they have no choice in the matter. When the force of law is used to impose "charity" (I.e. welfare) there can never be any long-term positive effects - for such effects come only from a moral change in the giver of the charity which morality is negated by the use of force.

You seem to subscribe to the socialist view that a person may justly take an innocent party's property without that party's consent. This is the sticking point for me: I believe people have an inherent right to their own property.

Edited: dubhdara on 13th Apr, 2005 - 5:02pm

Page 2 Tax No

I think its not true that anything government has a hand in is unsuccesful. A government institution works purely for the public interest and not on what is profitable.

Businesses dont care whether what they supply is good or not, profit is the bottom line.

I do believe business has a important part to play in society,, but it should never be looked to as a good thing. People should be very cautious and wary of business when buying into them, they are just a neccesary evil.

And to say that taxing the rich more hurts the poor is not true at all. Taxing the rich more can pay for things which benift the poor, eg. schools, libraries, and help with income. One party in England want to raise the top rate of tax by 40% - 50%. This would make university universable again (free) and pay for care for the elderley, and would enable a fairer tax system to be set up, based on ability to pay.

Remember that rich people have got their mney because of someoneelses labour.

and no im not a communist.

Tax No

Your post is full of extremely broad generalizations, most of which aren't true, but rather come from the rhetoric of the socialist/communist Left.

OK, just what government program, other than defense, has ever been truly successful?

Very nice sentiment, but experience doesn't prove this out. Most government workers are more interested in their secure jobs, and not the effects of those jobs on the public.

This is one of those broad generalizations. The laws of the market demand that products be what the consumers want, and that the quality be good. Profit IS the bottom line, but it is also for government - that is what taxes are about.

Necessary EVIL?! Good grief! How much more communistic can you GET!? Without business, you, mate, will be grubbing around in the fields, trying to gather enough foodstuffs in the summertime to keep from starving in the winter! Business is the ONLY thing that makes it possible for civilization as we know it. Heck, even the Chinese Communists are having to back off of statements like that above!

Who exactly said that taxing the rich more hurts the poor?

You do realize that you are NOT talking about taxing the rich, but rather about taxing the productive. Old money, such as British nobility, doesn't pay taxes, except on income from investments. What you are talking about is taking the money away from the productive members of society and giving it to the unproductive members.

Help with income? How is someone who is completely unproductive being helped with income? They DON'T HAVE ANY INCOME! Instead, they have handouts that are taken from the productive members of society, at the threat of violence to the person, and given to them. It is a direct attack by government upon the property, livelihood, and especially the liberty of the productive members of society.

BTW, who says that I have to provide schools, libraries, and universities to other people? Why do I have to work 40 to 60 hours per week, then turn around and pay out as much as 50% of my income so that someone else can get free books?

Now, don't get me wrong. Taxes ARE necessary, especially in modern civilization. However, IMO they are WAY too high.

Back to your statement that: "And to say that taxing the rich more hurts the poor is not true at all."
It depends on what you consider "taxing the rich". If you are talking about income tax, it certainly does, as that leaves less money for the "rich" to spend, which means less jobs for the "poor" to have, making all of society less productive.

If you consider "taxing the rich" as being "corporate taxes", that is the absolute worst thing that can be done for the poor. Corporations and other businesses have to pass those taxes through to their customers. So, such taxes raise the costs of all goods and services. In the US now, it is estimated that about 30% of the cost of all high-ticket items is pass-along taxes. It would be far, far worse in Britain, France, Germany, and Italy.

The effect of this is that what little money a poor person has doesn't go as far as it should. Since the farmer is taxed on his income, he has to have higher prices just to stay in business. The trucker has to charge more to carry the food. The processor, which is usually a corporation, gets hit with all sorts of taxes that greatly increase the price of the food processed. The can manufacturer gets hit with the income taxes and regulatory fees, as does the steel mill and the miner who mined the iron ore. By the time the can of peas gets to the corner shop, and the poor family pays for it, $.30 of peas now costs them about $.50.

Your head will start to spin if you consider all the places in the production chain of an automobile where the government places hidden taxes.

Goodness! What a marvelous system you are talking about! FREE university (no university does NOT mean that it is unversally freely available, but rather that the universe of information is theoretically available in it). So, once again, a person making $60,000 by working long hours, is forced (at the point of a gun) to pay for the education of some kid whose whole purpose in life is to go on the dole as quickly as possible.

A fairer tax system? How will it be fair? Based on the ability to pay? Or the willingness to do what is necessary to become successful.

Thank you very much for making my point for me. All of your arguments come back to the same point. Punish those who are successful, reward those who aren't. Put brakes on the economy, do everything possible to make everyone in the country equally poor and miserable, instead of doing what is necessary to stimulate business, innovation, and investment. Especially work hard to make sure that your best and brightest will flee the oppressive socialist system as fast as they can so that they can enjoy the fruits of their own labour.

BTW, I live in Michigan, which along with New York and California, seems to subscribe to the same philosophy. However, since Michigan is built on the automotive manufacturing industry, they keep trying to make it look as if they aren't hostile to business. New York and California glory in this, celebrating as businesses move out of their states, ever lowering their tax base and thus their revenues. After all, they can always raise the taxes some more, can't they?
Or is there some point, say 100%, that taxes don't work anymore?

Offtopic but, Please take the time to use the spell check, and review your posts before and after posting.

Edited: Nighthawk on 18th Apr, 2005 - 3:59pm

No Tax!

Well if I"m starting from scratch"¦actually that's incorrect.

Why don't we begin by returning to the original intent of the Constitution? Sooo (or most) of the issues do not even belong to the Feds, most are state issues. But that may be seen as a different issue, so I"ll try to keep on thread"¦the hec with new methods of taxing, let's start axing! We have a federal budget of over 2 ½ trillion dollars! Far too many entitlements, giveaways, guarantees, and illusions of securities. Less government is better government, I don't think I have seen that argued. Yet no one wants to give (see above list) back. Instead they clamor for more? And this leveling the field with my money, well"¦

I'm just uncomfortable with creating a new system of taxing when I don't think it gets to the root of the evil.

Here's over 1000s examples or places we can start!

LSU Libraries Federal Agency Directory https://www.lib.lsu.edu/gov/alpha

Here are the first 100 agencies starting with 'A'.

Accounting and Auditing Policy Committee (AAPC)
Acquisition Department
Acquisition and Assistance Management Services
Administration and Resource Management
Administration for Children and Families
Administration on Aging
Administrative Committee of the Federal Register
Administrative Law Judges
Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts (Federal Judiciary Homepage)
Administrative Offices
Administrator
Advanced Technology Program
Advisory Committee on Student Financial Assistance
Advisory Council on Historic Preservation
Aeronomy Laboratory
African Development Foundation
African and Middle Eastern Reading Room
AgExport Services Division
Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Agricultural Labor Affairs Coordinator
Agricultural Marketing Service
Agricultural Research Service -ARS
Air Combat Command
Air Education and Training Command
Air Force Agency for Modeling and Simulation
Air Force Audit Agency
Air Force Center for Environmental Excellence
Air Force Civil Engineer Support Agency
Air Force Communications Agency
Air Force Historical Research Agency
Air Force History Support Office
Air Force Information Warfare Center
Air Force Inspection Agency
Air Force Institute of Technology
Air Force Legal Services Agency
Air Force Materiel Command
Air Force Medical Operations Agency
Air Force Medical Support Agency
Air Force News Agency
Air Force Office of Scientific Research
Air Force Office of Special Investigations
Air Force Office of Survivor Assistance
Air Force Personnel Center
Air Force Real Property Agency
Air Force Research Laboratory
Air Force Reserve Command
Air Force Reserve Officer Training Corps (AFROTC)
Air Force Reserve Personnel Center
Air Force Safety Center
Air Force Services Agency
Air Force Space Command
Air Force Special Operations Command
Air Force Studies and Analyses Agency
Air Force Technical Applications Center
Air Intelligence Agency
Air Mobility Command
Air National Guard
Air Quality Branch
Air Resources Division
Air Resources Laboratory
Air University
Air Weather Service
Aircraft Technology
Albuquerque Operations Office
Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau
Alternative Farming Systems Information Center
American Battle Monuments Commission
American Folklife Center
American Forces Information Service
American Indian Liaison Office
American Indian and Alaska Native Affairs Desk
American Memory
Ames Laboratory (AMES)
Ames Research Center
Anacostia Museum and Center for African American History and Culture
Animal Welfare Information Center
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
Antitrust Division
Appalachian Regional Commission
Architect of the Capitol
Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board (Access Board)
Archives of American Art
Arctic Research Commission
Argonne National Laboratory (ANL)
Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute (AFRRI)
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Army Financial Management
Army Materiel Command
Army Medical Department (AMEDD)
Army Research Laboratory (ARL)
Army Review Boards Agency (ARBA)
Arthritis and Musculoskeletal Interagency Coordinating Committee
Arthur M. Sackler Gallery
Arts and Industries Building
ArtsEdge
Asian Division Reading Room
Assistant Secretary Fish and Wildlife and Parks
Associate Administrator for Commercial Space Transportation
Atlantic Oceanographic and Meteorological Laboratory

No Tax! - Page 2

Actually, I agree completely with this. The thing is that the philosophy that says it is ok to tax people because they have lots of money, feeds the philosophy that if you throw money at anything, it gets better. It also goes right along with the philosophy expressed within this topic that government programs are good, business is bad.

So, the question is, do we starve the government programs first, or do we attempt to lop them off first? It seems easier to starve them.

However, I do agree that there are an awful lot of government organizations that need to go the way of the dodo.

No Tax! Politics Business Civil & History - Page 2

I agree funbiker... I believe taxes should be flat across... but in the condition our country is in financially, I don't think that could ever be implemented.

I think it's sick that our government has given tax breaks to big companies that ship their work overseas (like call centers or production lines) I think this is terrible! I can see how the company could save on labor/benefits by shipping work overseas, but I don't see how the government can reward this behavior. It's a slap in the face to the working people.