Is Islam Against Democracy? - Page 4 of 6

QUOTE you will be surprised how conservative - Page 4 - Studies of Islam - Posted: 3rd Jun, 2007 - 7:00pm

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Poll: In general, when the words Islam, Muslim or Quran are spoken to you... can you associate any to the meaning of democracy?
1
  Yes!       16.67%
0
  Sometimes       0.00%
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  Most times not       33.33%
3
  No!       50.00%
Total Votes: 6
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2nd Jun, 2007 - 1:50pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy? - Page 4

Ascent:

QUOTE
People have their privacy. It is in public that all people should respect the social norms and rules..


So if I am a Mormon in Iran, at home I can practice my religion freely but not in public, in public I must follow the social norms and rules according to Islam. Is that what you are saying? Basically, are people free to worship another Religion in public? (have their own Churches, meetings, proselyting, etc). If the answer is that they can have Churches but not proselyte then Iran (as most Muslim nations) do not allow freedom of religion.

It is simple, if I am a Mormon in Iran...why should I be expected or forced to follow the rules that do not belong to my personal beliefs? If the answer is that because most of the country is Muslim so those rules must be followed because is a Theocracy then again, freedom of religion is not allowed. We can enter technicalities here and stated as you said, you are free to do it in private, I do not see that as freedom of religion at all. If you are truly free, you are allowed to practice your religion in private as well as public, preach, exhort, etc.

QUOTE
rather this freedom exists in all humans and this is granted by God, the ability to choose


If free agency is granted by God and exists in all humans, why then people are forced to follow a certain religion standard set by Muslims in Iran? It's contradictory to me. As an example, I am 100% in agreement that Muslim women in Iran need to cover their heads, dress in a certain way, etc because that's their religion (hopefully the religion they chose to follow) but those who are not Muslims should NOT be forced to follow the same rules because that's not their religion beliefs. So I go to Iran (mind you, I won't be wearing a head cover) what would happen to me? I know many tourists who have been forced to wear it as well as follow their dress standards. Mind you, I have deep religions values and belief in modesty of dress..nevertheless, for Muslim standards just showing off a piece of your hair under your hair cover is considered bad. If someone is not a Muslim in Iran they should not be forced to follow their dress standards (as an example). If the Government is imposing them that, then I do not think we can say they believe in the human freedom granted by God.

Rather off topic, but...
Karbala, thank you for explaining the passages. I started reading the koran a couple of days ago, it is indeed a very interesting book and not so simple to understand (and I thought the Old Testament was hard!) I can see, based on my little reading, why some fanatics of Islam may interpret some of the passages in the wrong light and justify their suicide bombers and killings of "non-believers". It is a bit confusing to read about a very aggressive and harsh God (not very different from the Old Testament) as well as a very kind, loving and caring God.



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2nd Jun, 2007 - 3:54pm / Post ID: #

Democracy Islam Is

Any place that says you are to join or die is against democracy, as well in there religion they are committed to kill all who are not, as well as if they do not pray 5 times a day they are to be killed, and if they want to go to heaven they are to kill all non believers - is that democracy.

In the pre-existence the great deceiver wanted us all to be directed to do what was necessary to go back to heaven. and he would make sure that would happen and the glory would be his and not to whom it truly belonged to, so we do know whose religion this truly is.



Post Date: 2nd Jun, 2007 - 7:14pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Is Islam Against Democracy? Islam Studies

Im not sure which religion wayned is referring to?

I will let Ascent answer your questions since he knows more about Iran than I do.

LDS_forever your political ideology seems to be a form of extreme liberalism where anyone can do whatever they want. Ill look for another topic where we can address in details the idea of liberalism and its flaws.


Rather off topic, but...
LDS_forever im glad you are reading the Quran. It is easy for someone to just open a page, randomly select a passage and misinterpret it. I went through the same process as you are with the bible.

At first I believed the stereotypes without personally investigating the Bible. I then enrolled on a course which introduced Christianity and found that many stereotypes about the bible were false when examined in detail. Many of these stereotypes even came from muslim and christian scholars themselves. I think it is very important for Christians to read the Quran to see for themselves what Islam is about. I also believe it is even more important for muslims to read the bible to see for themselves where the fundamentals of Islam has come from (Abrahamic tradition) as Jesus isn't a normal person to us but we revere him as a divinely commissioned Messenger of God and an intercessor for man.

As for the confusion over the depiction of God. God does not have mood changes or emotions. He isn't "harsh" or "lenient". He is however "just" and "compassionate". These two behaviours arent contradictory but rather depends on the the action of people God is judging.

2nd Jun, 2007 - 7:47pm / Post ID: #

Page 4 Democracy Islam Is

QUOTE
LDS_forever your political ideology seems to be a form of extreme liberalism where anyone can do whatever they want.


I am not into politics so I cannot really label myself into a political ideology. nevertheless, you will be surprised how conservative my views are in most things, which does NOT mean I expect others to live and act as what I believe.

As an example, women in Trinidad dress very provocative...I mean is very bad, I do not like it neither I accept it and I always try to dress in modesty (no shorts, no tank tops, no short skirts, etc) YET does not mean I want these same women to be forced to dress as I do because of my PERSONAL beliefs. That's my whole point.



2nd Jun, 2007 - 11:57pm / Post ID: #

Democracy Islam Is

I just started a poll for votes on how visitors to this Thread see Islam as it relates to Democracy. Honestly, I see an hear MOSTLY negative things about Muslims each day and very little by the way of Democracy within Islam. To me the path is clear and is similar to the Mosaic law (if I can dare to make such a comparison), in other words there are no grey areas, there is a law and there is a consequence.



Post Date: 3rd Jun, 2007 - 1:53pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Is Islam Against Democracy?

QUOTE
So if I am a Mormon in Iran, at home I can practice my religion freely but not in public, in public I must follow the social norms and rules according to Islam. Is that what you are saying? Basically, are people free to worship another Religion in public? (have their own Churches, meetings, proselyting, etc). If the answer is that they can have Churches but not proselyte then Iran (as most Muslim nations) do not allow freedom of religion.


If you would count Satanism as a religion too, then we will have a problem, however there are churches in Iran; you can search for their pictures easily. ...That depends on the practice itself, if it does oppose Islamic values then they are not allowed. But in most cases it should be fine.

QUOTE
It is simple, if I am a Mormon in Iran...why should I be expected or forced to follow the rules that do not belong to my personal beliefs? If the answer is that because most of the country is Muslim so those rules must be followed because is a Theocracy then again, freedom of religion is not allowed. We can enter technicalities here and stated as you said, you are free to do it in private, I do not see that as freedom of religion at all. If you are truly free, you are allowed to practice your religion in private as well as public, preach, exhort, etc.


Because in that case you would be living in an Islamic society among majority Muslims who wish to advance in a particular way, remember you can never build two utopias in one city and the ultimate goal is not to please individuals" diverse desires, but to establish a utopia and to move towards divine justice and perfection. So as a Mormon you have to observe Hijab. In fact lack of any modesty and ultimately lack of Hijab has a pagan origin and as far as I know most religions demand modesty, now if some religions today have lost touch with their own roots that is a different case...
If by freedom of religion you mean to allow all beliefs including the opposing ones to coexist, then you must also acknowledge that in some cases you have to force this peaceful coexistence, and that most assuredly often means to keep them weak, you can not practice two creeds to achieve two totally different visions in one time and place.
All opposing beliefs can coexist because they are all kept weak and visionless in the name of liberalism and freedom, in essence this is the liberalism that is advancing while all other religions and ideologies are deteriorating and being desensitised gradually as they become mixed like oil and water, metaphorically, eventually these do not mix and if settled they become separated again, however while they are being mixed at high speeds and forcefully in an state of plasma, people steadily lose their faith and their values in exchange for liberal values. So a liberal democracy is not in favour of any ideology but itself and it demands service and devotion from its followers, otherwise it dies out just like any other belief. It is a grand illusion that many ironically consider liberalism as the protector of all beliefs, there is no such a thing! A belief by its definition is bound to oppose something and in this case it is the most amazing one! God-willing I will explain this later.
Now imagine a democracy that is not liberal, in such a system suppose in the first five years religion/ideology A1 takes power and the country starts to move towards a certain direction and suddenly in the fifth year religion/ideology A2 takes power and all the work of A1 is destroyed and country starts to move towards a different path and so on, no ideology can reach its destination and this is not progressive by all standards.
In a liberal democracy ultimately all groups that become powerful, they all have to be liberal, these are the liberal values that are considered the instrument of bringing man to its salvation and thus these are fixed and absolutes from their perspective.

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3rd Jun, 2007 - 6:42pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Democracy - Page 4

Ascent:

QUOTE
So as a Mormon you have to observe Hijab. In fact lack of any modesty and ultimately lack of Hijab has a pagan origin and as far as I know most religions demand modesty, now if some religions today have lost touch with their own roots that is a different case...


Let us clarify that the modesty Muslims refer to is different to the modesty in other religions. As an example, I believe in modesty of dress...as a matter of fact, as I pointed out before, I do not wear tight clothes, shorts, tank tops or any low cuts or revealing clothes. I do not cover my head and I do not consider that to be immodest, I know for Islam it is and I respect it, my whole point is that I do not think I should wear it if I am in Iran as an example because I am not a Muslim. Nevertheless, I understand your point. We just disagree on it.

I know you seem to believe that there is freedom of religion in your country as well as that there is respect towards the privacy of individuals. I suppose we have different concepts as to what it is freedom and what is democracy and it really has nothing to do with Liberalism but to do with cultural differences.



Post Date: 3rd Jun, 2007 - 7:00pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Is Islam Democracy Studies Islam - Page 4

QUOTE
you will be surprised how conservative my views are in most things, which does NOT mean I expect others to live and act as what I believe.


So are you saying that no one has the right to force their beliefs on others? If you say yes then you are a liberal

QUOTE
we have different concepts as to what it is freedom and what is democracy and it really has nothing to do with Liberalism but to do with cultural differences.

It has everything to do with liberalism because that is what liberalism is, giving the people the freedom to do what they wish or believe.

Most liberalists will point to principles such as "no harm", "social contract" etc etc. But my point is this:

Should people really be free to act as they wish in society? What if this includes things like rape, murder, assault etc etc. Am I allowed to force my view on others in this case?

I originally defined democracy as the collective will of the people to decide their own affairs.

Here is an example:
There are 10 people on an island.
There is 1 muslim and the rest are non-muslim.

Now one non-muslim rapes another non-muslim.
The other 8 non-muslims choose to forgive the rapist while the Muslim says the rapist should be punished. In this case in Islam the muslim cannot force Islam on the others and punish the murderer himself.
Hence Islam is not incompatible with democracy or even liberal democracy. However Liberal democracy will always be inferior to Islam in terms of mans salvation, progress and evolution.



Attached Image Edited: Karbala on 3rd Jun, 2007 - 7:08pm

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