Is Islam Against Democracy? - Page 5 of 6

Interesting views. I suppose the problem starts - Page 5 - Studies of Islam - Posted: 12th Jun, 2007 - 8:26pm

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Poll: In general, when the words Islam, Muslim or Quran are spoken to you... can you associate any to the meaning of democracy?
1
  Yes!       16.67%
0
  Sometimes       0.00%
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  Most times not       33.33%
3
  No!       50.00%
Total Votes: 6
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3rd Jun, 2007 - 7:19pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy? - Page 5

Karbala:

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So are you saying that no one has the right to force their beliefs on others? If you say yes then you are a liberal


As I stated before, since I am not into politics neither I am really interested in it, I wish not to be labeled as a liberal or any other political view. Thank you. What I do care about is people having the freedom to choose with obvious consequences when that freedom interferes with the freedom of another individual.

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Should people really be free to act as they wish in society? What if this includes things like rape, murder, assault etc etc. Am I allowed to force my view on others in this case?


That's NOT the concept I have about freedom. You are speaking of extremes (As you usually like to do for some reason). Murder, rape, assault interfere with the freedom of an individual therefore it is wrong in my view. I do not see how you can compare rape or a murder with the freedom of let's say a Jehovah Witness proselyting and distributing their books in the streets of Iran.



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Post Date: 3rd Jun, 2007 - 9:55pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Democracy Islam Is

I use extreme example to better illustrate my points.

Liberalism is a very broad philosophical concept which perhaps most of the western world follows. LDS_forever your views are very similar to some liberals for example John Rawls.

As for people proselyting im not sure what goes on in Iran actually. That is perhaps a question for Ascent.

Agha Ascent are non-muslims allowed to do Da'wa (proselyting) in Iran? I may have seen some fatwas from Rahbar Khamenei prohibiting it but im not sure.

4th Jun, 2007 - 12:07am / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy? Islam Studies

Attached Image QUOTE (Karbala @ 3-Jun 07, 5:55 PM)
Liberalism is a very broad philosophical concept which perhaps most of the western world follows. LDS_forever your views are very similar to some liberals for example John Rawls.


If by liberal you mean I embrace some sort of democracy, yes I do and dream all countries in the world can have that chance (Including Islamic countries).

Rather off topic, but...
The whole issue of democracy is so close to my heart because I come from a country where we had 30 years of military government that caused anyone opposed to them to be kidnapped, tortured and killed (Including pregnant women) It left us with 30,000 missing people, one of them my own mother when I was only one year old.



4th Jun, 2007 - 12:52am / Post ID: #

Page 5 Democracy Islam Is

The places where I received information about Muslims is from the Famous radio announcers as well as TV shows, and I have received many e-mails about them from many different sources and there are many Muslims who just want to live peaceful lives but then there are also many who want to go to paradise and the only way then can get there is to kill the unbelievers.



Post Date: 5th Jun, 2007 - 10:31pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Democracy Islam Is

As Karbala has mentioned, liberalism is a philosophy and a world view, you see the universe through it and issue judgments based on it. It is more elementary than politics.
Liberalism began with modernism and reached its peak during postmodern era in which people began questioning the authority of reason. Here is one quote "Nothing is certain", but paradoxically that would mean the only certain thing is that nothing is certain. Similar to what scientists may say: "Nothing is absolute", but that would mean the only absolute is that nothing is absolute, because that would be an encompassing rule or statement.

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Agha Ascent are non-muslims allowed to do Da'wa (Proselyting) in Iran? I may have seen some fatwas from Rahbar Khamenei prohibiting it but I'm not sure.


I have little information on this, but I presume it is not allowed, however I know for a fact that you can find almost all sort of books in Iran and there are many university courses on western philosophies. I also know that students are free to discuss and defend what they want, for example liberalism.
As for religious advertisement, I am not sure, but let me tell you that today Shia Islam has only one satellite channel dedicated to religion, and yet there are countless other channels just for Christianity, at least 3 are just in Farsi! And people do receive these channels…
In Iran most people have access to internet, and they can search for almost anything, except that there is restriction on unethical contents. Also more than 65% of university students are female.

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If by liberal you mean I embrace some sort of democracy, yes I do and dream all countries in the world can have that chance (Including Islamic countries).


Your dreams are identical to those of people like Bush, though you may actually be sincere in your claim. The truth is that most of the USA allies in the region are not democracies and certainly not liberal.

Likewise we do also dream that one day your country and others will also become theocratic!

6th Jun, 2007 - 4:40am / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?

Democracy means different things for different people. America's visions of democracy is very different from that of say Switzerland where the people vote far more often than then in the US. Is Switzerland performing a unacceptable form of democracy? No and many might say that Switzerland is closer to what democracy should be, but the key is that it works for both countries and the voices are heard. Without a doubt, Russia's version of democracy is and will continue to morph into something very different from the US. Basically, as soon as you decide to be a republic, true democracy starts to suffer and that is because your representative cannot represent everyone when they vote as they only get one vote. However, a republic is a natural solution to dealing with governments size… I don't want to vote on everything… so we don't have democracy!

Iran has a democratically elected president and this is truly unique among the states in that region that use a religious doctrine for guideance. Now, the end result is not the form of democracy that the west uses as the choice has to be confirmed by the Council. Fortunately, there has been little division between the elected and confirmed for Iran, but that is a form of democracy, just not the west's. The president is allowed to deal with minor issues that plague the country, but key moral and and general policy setting resides in others hands, as well as the decision to go to war. In addition, not all that are in Iran have a equal chance to the highest positions. Persian Jews will never be on the Council of Guardians, but are given one seat in parliment. Judaism is not the direction that the Islmaic Revolution wants to go and that is the motor by which Iran runs, so it doesn't fit in with their democracy. However, if you were muslim and in Iran, you would feel there is democracy.

If we look at Egypt, it is probably the closest to what the west would identify as a democracy, but yet there are still some questions there with Mubarak's embracing of freedoms for all. So really, when we of the west talk about democracies, we don't seem to include Egypt. Interestingly enough, Egypt is about 80 plus percent muslim. So Egypt's form of democracy isn't the same as the west's, but it is working for them so far.

Interestingly enough, many of the countries in the middle east are republics of one sort or another. The main difference is that religion is directly intertwined with the government. This is not so in the west. So in the eyes of most of the west, Islam is against democracy because it is not our view of democracy, but even we don't all share the same democracy, it is just that the west likes their religion separate from the government.

Rather off topic, but...

I stayed away from discussing liberalism as it is pretty far away from democracy. Liberalism would be a far better analysis tool if we were comparing socialism. True liberalism will actually destroy democracy.



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Post Date: 6th Jun, 2007 - 5:43am / Post ID: #

Is Islam Against Democracy?
A Friend

Is Islam Democracy - Page 5

A very good overview of democracy as a concept provided by vincenzo.

There are a number of systems for representational democracy even in the west and their are arguments for and against them. Some proportional democracy systems when applied to Iran would mean that Jews would not even be represented! It is actually an acheivement on Irans part some would say that their is a seat reserved for a jew in parliament.

Yes it is true Iran is unique in the sense that the system is oriented religiously. However this should not be a surpirse since Iran is overwhelmingly muslim.

The phenomena of the Council of Guardians overlooking parliamentary decisions should not surprise westerners since a similar system is applied in the UK with the House of Lords and House of Commons. In fact the half of the members of Council of Guardians are elected whch is more than the House of Lords in the UK.

The iranian system is truely unique and may not conform to certain peoples ideas of democracy. However when compared to the USA or UK it may be argued it is as democratic or even more democratic when taking into account electorate turnouts and other factors.

The issue is not really what system of democracy to employ. History has shown that the popular will of the people will eventually triumph. Liberalism is strife in the west where people are more "benefit-oriented" while people in Iran are more "truth oriented" which is why they accept a religious theocracy.

However one cannot dismiss Iran as a theocracy which ignores the views of the people. Most legislation comes from an elected parliament. The higher Council of Guardian is halfly elected.

An often quoted argument of Iran being anti-democracy is the existence of a Supreme Leader who complete decision making powers. However a closer look at the iranian constitution will reveal a more complex issue. Consider that the Supreme Leader is appointed and supervised by the Assembly of Experts. The Assembly of Experts is infact a directly elected body which has powers to even dismiss the supreme leader.

Hence the iranian system does have checks and balances throughout its heirarchical structure. But it is strongly islamical

12th Jun, 2007 - 8:26pm / Post ID: #

Is Islam Democracy Studies Islam - Page 5

Interesting views. I suppose the problem starts when what Ascend and Karbala are saying is going on in Iran to what I see on the news (And not all are "West propaganda") Particularly with regards to women's rights.

Everybody knows there are rigid "Rules" (If you want to call it that way) about the type of books that are allowed to be published in Iran just as an example. Again, I think is a cultural issue since if probably I have been born there or exposed to Islam since young then probably my views would be the same as you all. This goes on in most things.

I just do not agree with the idea that Iran is a democratic country as it was stated in other threads, I am glad Ascend came and clarified that is indeed a Theocracy.



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