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How To Become Perfect - Page 4

Lets start from the ground up on this one: First off, before looking at what is required to become perfect, lets look at whether we can in this life. If we can, then we need to re-define perfection...

Evidences that we can:

1 line logic
Seth was perfect - D&C 107:43
Noah was perfect - Moses 8:27

3 line logic
All who are sanctified are perfect - Heb. 10:12&14, Moro. 10:33
The are many in the scriptures who were sanctified in the mortal flesh - D&C 88:1-5, 88:26, 20:32-34, 84:23&33, Moses 6:59-60, 1Cor. 1:2, 6:11, 3 Ne. 28:39
Those who were sanctified in the moral flesh were "just men made perfect", and there were many of them. (There are many of them.)

One interesting verse in D&C pointed out the following:

Or in other words, their Calling & Election was made sure, or would be soon after this revelation was given. They were sanctified and thus made perfect according to Heb. 10:12&14, & Moro. 10:33. There were many of them at that time that received these blessings. (That is partly how I know there are many now. the other reason is that I have talked to many who have it. And noticed in the wards in which I have travelled that their tends to be a minimum of 1, usually a couple. some wards I have been to have 5 that I was able to confirm. this is from personal experience. Right off the bat, if their is a sealer in the ward you can count that as being 1. But ask your uncle what he knows about C&E first. It is very likely that if he had been in the calling very long, he has received the blessing. Most sealers receive it long before being called as sealers. Oh, and if his wife is still around, try to get her involved in your conversation too. Together they will be able to give you very good insight. Please let us know after you have talked with them anything you feel comfortable sharing...)

Message Edited... JB: The offtopic tag was not mean to be used to carry on two Discussions. Please learn how to use the Quote tag.

Perfect To How

The Topic of Calling & Election Sure is already covered in the Mature LDS Section, I believe I already stated that if not in this Thread - elsewhere. Please stop using the Offtopic Tag flippantly in order to carry on two Discussions in one Thread. The last Post was ridiculous and had to be edited as it was half a page long of off topic messages.

How To Become Perfect Studies Doctrine Mormon

Amonhi

I understand where you are coming from, but much of what you are saying is coming from personal experience.

I do not think we can know if someone is perfect in any calling, Sealer, Prophet, Apostle or anyone (save the few you mention in D&C and Moses). This would constitute Judging as found in the scripture
Matthew 7-1

I do think, and this is comforting to me, the road to ultimate perfection an event. We do not receive perfection immediately when we are baptized, received the Holy Ghost enter the temple, or become a sealer.
From Elder Bednar's talk And Nothing Shall Offend Them

I think we should ask "What must I do to apply the atoning sacrifice of my Savior so that I may continue to be Sanctified and perfected (Ongoing process) to become perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect (future event).

A very important discussion on the road to perfection is given by Russell M. Nelson Perfection Pending He define two types of perfection mortal perfection and Eternal perfection. I think I have been arguing that Eternal Perfection cannot be achieved in this life and you have been talking about mortal perfection.

So you are right there are some mortal perfect (Pure) men. But according to brother Nelson this is not the perfection found in Matthew 5:48 "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"

So no, I do not believe we receive the complete power, Glory and perfection of the Father(according to brother Nelson) but we can achieve level of mortal perfection that assures that we are assured that ultimate perfection at a later time.

Edited: dbackers on 14th Oct, 2007 - 11:30pm

Page 4 Perfect To How

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE This would constitute Judging as found in the scripture Matthew 7-1 "Judge not, that ye be not judged." That would be a good way to put off the judgement as if the scripture is true, then we by not judging would not be judged. However, we we are not judged then we will neither be judge good , nor judged evil. QUOTE "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:" - Luke 6:37 IMO, The next step would be Judging only positively. Giving the benefit of the doubt, etc. Not only forgiving, but finding the good and love in them and their actions. Because: QUOTE "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." - Matt. 7: 2 "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again." - 3 Ne. 14:2 "And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged." - Moro. 7: 18

You are probably correct that we have been looking at two parts of perfection Mortal perfection and Eternal Perfection. One is with in our grasp here and now, and the other is not.

That would be a good way to put off the judgement as if the scripture is true, then we by not judging would not be judged. However, we we are not judged then we will neither be judge good , nor judged evil.

IMO, The next step would be Judging only positively. Giving the benefit of the doubt, etc. Not only forgiving, but finding the good and love in them and their actions. Because:

The lord caused "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" to be built up because of our "Dead Works".

However, "The Church of the First Born" though is compiled of those who are have achieved "Mortal perfection", is also NOT a "a well-provisioned rest home". In fact, its members are far busier, and learn MUCH, MUCH faster, both in knowledge and in experience. (This brings up a new idea, a person who has reached "Mortal perfection" and yet who makes mistakes, learns, gains knowledge and gains experience.)
This is even more interesting when compared with something Nelson said in the same talk you quoted from:

Matt 5:48 says,

Did you notice that Nelson went out of his way to tell us that this perfection, that God the Father has, that we must achieve is NOT, a perfection that includes, "freedom from error". It sounds to me like Nelson is saying that just as Man can be perfect and still make mistakes, so too can God be perfect or Teleios which "does not imply "freedom from error"; it implies "achieving a distant objective." And nelson is saying that we are to achieve that perfection of God which does not include "freedom from error". Hmmm.....

So then, what is perfection? Even Eternal Perfection? Does it mean to achieve a distant objective?

Although this Eternal perfection which happens at the resurrection is interesting, I am primarily interested in the growth I can have here and now. I do not worry about the "Eternal Perfection" as it can only result in what I am capable of obtaining here and now, which you called "Mortal Perfection" and I add without "freedom from error".

Rather than look at the blessings of this perfection, which really aren't applicable to achieving this mortal perfection, why don't we look at how to become "mortally perfected". It is now possible, and within our grasp. How do we grasp it? Do we just focus on bridling our tongue? (James 3:2) I want details, not generic and ambiguous answers. Real answers. I know a man who prayed and asked what he had to do to receive his C&E. He received a direct answer that he applied and 48hrs later he had the promise. (He didn't even know if God existed the week before. A real Lamoni.) That is what I call concrete answers... ;^) So, what does perfection mean? and how do we achieve it? (Mortal Perfection)

Perfect To How

Speaking for myself. I am a long way from whatever definition of perfection we agree on. I am working now on just trying to overcome some weaknesses, fulfilling my church callings, teaching my family the importance of obedience, and moving toward my God rather then away him. I am not sure I can even fathom anything beyond that at certain times in my life.

I am in need of all the help I can get, that is why I sometimes have to focus on the small principles of the Gospel such as prayer, scripture reading, journal writing.

That does not mean I do not understand some of the deeper things of the Gospel, but sometimes I am distracted by them. I sometimes have to wake up in the morning and just say "I do not know if I can do it all today, but I can do the important stuff". I pray. I plead with the Father that today I can do some good things with my life, improve on something that I am weak at and help my Family to improve.

I am not able to say yet "Today I will be perfect"
I do say in my mind "I am going to do better. I am going to be the Man that my Savior would have me be". I still make mistakes and I still need to come to my Father in prayer asking for His forgiveness. Right now that is where I am at. I hope someday I can move to the next level.

How To Become Perfect

Two things you didn't mean to point out, but you still pointed out in the last post.
1. Humility - ability to learn, teachability, begins by accepting that we have room to progress or improve. This is not something that goes away after we are mortally perfect, (in my opinion, it doesn't go away when we are Eternally perfect either). But this humility is coupled with Hope and Faith. If it is not coupled with hope and faith, then it is called dispair. Moro. 10:22
2. Faith - Ability to believe. We can never achieve something unless we can believe we can acheive it. In the case of perfection, one of Satan's greatest lies is that we can't acheive perfection. And we all fell for it. Making it impossible in our minds places it safely beyond our reach. Then, Satan walks away without even worrying about us because we bought into his lie and won't even try. There is no chain stronger than the chains of our own thoughts that bind us in the prison of our own minds, from which we cannot escape even though we hold the prison key securely in our right hand. Like Houdini who bragged that he could escape from any jail cell. Then he was finally put in an unlocked cell, (which he thought was locked), and he couldn't escape, because he couldn't pick the already open lock...
If we can learn to free our minds to "believe all things", then surely we can believe that we too can "over come all things" and become "made perfect". (It may even be easier for us when we consider that there is only 1 or 2 major things we picked up as a child that still plage us.) But then again, we don't have to be perfect to be perfect.... :^) Remember, I think it was you who said, "we are made perfect through the atonement".

Pretend that you could become some form of perfection, "which we could agree on". How would you do it? How would any of us do it? What is required to be "perfected in Christ"?

Message Edited... Persephone: Please learn how to use the Quote Tags / Offtopic Tags. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Rather off topic, but... Modified for grammer - It was too late for me to be typing... My thoughts sound really good and made sense until I read them. I hope I fixed them so they make sense, but as Einstien said, "you can not correct a problem with the same mind set that created it."

How To Perfect - Page 4

The trouble is, the leadership of the Church does not typically teach you can reach perfection in one glorious prayer session. It takes most of us a lifetime of prayer, and struggle. Perfection or Purity is a process and not an event where one day we awake and the Lord declares us as perfect. The savior chips away at our imperfection and molds us as he would have us be.

From What Does It Mean to Be Perfect?
By Elder Cecil O. Samuelson

It is a long process that involves patience and diligence.
From Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin Guided by His Exemplary Life

So this leads to your request.

Well, I have three concrete answers that President Kimball gave to us to live a "Zionlike" Life.

Brother Nelson added:

I simplify it to: do all that we can do to keep the commandments, Put our whole heart and love into the work and repent when we fall Short.

And then we must realize it is out of our hands. It is not we who choose when or how we are perfected, the Lord makes that determination. Sometimes even after obedience and a pure life the Lord does not immediately give us the answer.

From Patience
By Elder Neal A. Maxwell

Edited: dbackers on 19th Oct, 2007 - 6:53pm

How To Perfect Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

You are right. The leaders do not typically teach this. But it does happen, like Lamoni, Alma the younger, and others... I liked the way you referred to the Lord having to chip away at our imperfections. The symbol is perfect in that we choose how stiff and hard we are. The harder we are, the more difficult we are to "chip" and only small pieces can be "chipped off" at a time. This is very difficult material to work with. If we become soft with a broken Heart and a contrite spirit, we become malleable and the Lord doesn't have to fight against us to create the masterpiece. It is us who decide what sins tempt us and how bad that temptation is. It is also us who decide how fast we are willing to progress. God would that we all progress like Christ did. But we won't, but choice. Too many favorite sins I guess... Lamoni went from not even knowing if God existed to being perfected in 3 days, while he was ?asleep?.

Just as we have been discussing, there is a great confusion about perfection because some teachers refer to perfection that means "complete, finished, fully developed" which never comes in this life, and others refer to perfection that can come in this life. Most teachers are like you and think that any type of perfection is unattainable in this life. This adds to the confusion and causes people to misinterpreted scripture. For example, if you cannot comprehend that perfection can come in this life, then every scripture that teaches that we can be perfected is immediately discarded as referring to some future and currently unattainable date. The mind thinks it understands and dismisses the scriptures without further consideration. Because this happens with every topic, it is best to read the scriptures without preconceived notions as to what they are telling us, (Even if those preconceived notions come from a lifetime of church attendance.)

With God all things are possible. But with man, we limit ourselves to our own realm of possibility.

The quotes and ideas you added are good. They are however specific. the problem with specifics is that people begin to focus on the action. For example, the actions you listed are:
1. Be selfless - give more to others than you take for yourself.
2. Cooperate with others - don't fight, try to achieve the same goals.
3. Unanimity - Reach a consenscious in decisions and actions.
4. Sacrifice - Give to the Lord what he wants regardless of what you want.
etc...

The problem with such specifics it that we can never make it to heaven by focusing on our actions. Sin is not determined by our actions. So, following/obeying a law such as the Law of Moses or the Laws of a Government/Church will NEVER bring us to perfection. These last 3 sentences which I typed go directly contrary to the teachings of the world. But they are true. We can never be saved by dead works. What is a dead work? It is something we do out of duty, expectation, requirement, or any other reason than "because I want to".

For example, praying is counted evil before God if, we do not pray with real intent, (Moro. 7). So, we cannot become perfect by doing anything physical or obedience related. The heart must be changed such that it has "no more desire to do evil, but to do good continually". - Alma 19:33, Alma 41:5, Alma 29:5

By first paying attention to our dead works, things we do, but don't really want to do, we become aware of how much we lie to ourselves and others. This lying is called a dirty heart. Our actions are not honest and they cause us to appear better than we are. Although this looks good, it is counted unto us as evil. Moro. 7:6-10 We must gain a pure heart.

They will see God because the y will be brought back into God's presence. Which happens when they are perfected in this life or the next, as was the brother of Jarod and everyone else who has this privilege.

When we realize that our actions are now inline with our hearts, we want to change from our negative life to a positive life. This requires Charity or Love. How do we gain Charity? We simply ask for it, with a sincere and honest request in prayer. But our prayer must be sincere and with real intent, or it will do nothing but be counted evil toward us.

So, to recap:
1. Humility - teachable, begins by accepting that we have room to progress or improve.
2. Faith - Ability to believe we can.
3. A Pure Heart - Actions are inline with intentions, Not necessarily meaning that we have love, but that we stop pretending to be something we are not. Being honest or pure in heart or intent.
4. Charity - We have pure love Like, For and From Christ. Our hearts are changed from evil to good. From hate to love. So that our intentions which match with our actions are good, "because we want to". We pray because our hearts love it and we find joy in it!

So, What is next?

Message Edited... JB: Please check over your tags when you Post, I corrected a badly formed tag that was causing no quotes to show. Also, in some places you had no quote tag at all.