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How To Become Perfect - Page 5

They indeed did have miraculous conversion experiences being "overpowered by the Spirit" in the case of Lamoni and "been redeemed of the Lord" in the case of Alma. This does not imply they were perfect from that point on nor does it mean that the rest of there lives they were sinless. They were indeed faithful to the end, being an instrument of much good to their people.

We all can have very strong conversions and receive an assurance that we are redeemed(something that happens when we fully repent and are forgiven for our sins), similar to Alma and Lamoni, but such events are catalysts that lead to a righteous and whole life (not necessarily a declaration that we are perfect).


Amonhi

I am only repeating the words of Apostles and "most teachers" such as brother Wirthlin

Another teacher
Howard W. Hunter He Invites Us to Follow Him

This quote implies that no one else has reached Christ's mortal perfection.

And from one of my favorite teachers Elder Maxwell's (Out of Obscurity)

So we all fall short of His perfection (Christ's mortal perfection). That does not mean we are not to strive with all of our strength and might to draw closer to Christ's "high and perfect standards". Indeed the command to "be perfect" is the goal our Father in Heaven has set up for us regardless of our ability to achieve it yet.

Perfect To How

Mortal perfection (Being made Perfect) is not nearly so hard to achieve as you make it out to be. But it is impossible the way most try to do it, by trying to live the laws and commandments perfectly, which will never bring perfection in this life or the next, (Heb. 7:19), because it does not change the heart.
Notice how Alma the younger was born of God, (Alma 36: 5, 23-24, 26), at that very moment and according to Joseph Smith those Born of God no longer continue in sin.

Now if they have truly been Born of God, (and you might argue against the scriptures here), then he has also as Joseph Smith said, "received the Holy Spirit of Promise." Which is the promise of exaltation and Eternal life and comes to those who are "Just men Made Perfect", D&C 76:53 & 69.

You see, it is simple to understand. Eternal life, (Life as God knows it), comes by knowing God. (John 17:3) And we "know God" only through love.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." 1 Jn. 4:7-8

So, When we are "born of God", we are changed from that carnal and fallen man to "Redeemed man" becoming Son's and Daughters of God, being full of love. This is why Love was the central teaching in Christ's ministry, and what all the laws and all the prophets hang on. This change from carnal, selfish and devilish to being full of love is called "Being Born of God".

"And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God." - Mosiah 27:25-26

When a person has been changed from their carnal State they are no longer classified with fallen man, and being redeemed are brought back into the presence of God, having communion with God, Christ, and all the General Assembly and Church of Enoch and Church of the First Born. In other words, they pass through the veil, passing those who stand as sentinels and are able to communicate/converse with all those who have also passed through the veil.

For Alma the Younger, this happened in a split moment, Alma 36:10-24. Also, this has happened for many. In fact, it is supposed to happen for everyone, NOT the select Few!

Because the masses are missing the very few principles needed, these things remain mysterious, but that is not unusual...

In all these things, I am speaking of Mortal Perfection, which is attainable in this life, at any moment.

Here again you have taken the position that we cannot achieve perfection right now. Perhaps you mean that we cannot attain Ultimate perfection or "Eternal perfection". As many of the quotes don't point out either, there is a perfection that we can obtain in this life. Rather than setting our sights low, we might as well set them high and see what we really can hit.

Once again, you unknowingly hit the last of the 5 requirements to achieve perfection/be sealed by the Holy spirit of promise/Sanctified by the Holy Ghost in this life. You said,

This refers to the final key or simple step! That is that we must stop relying on authorities and receive all truth from the witness of the "only sure teacher of truth", the Holy Ghost.

We must learn to trust in the arm of the Spirit above men, (the arms of flesh). For it is that Spirit which is to be our guide and none other. It is that Spirit which Sanctifies us, and none other. And no one can receive the blessings of God or be perfect until he can follow that spirit when all the world shouts against it. To quote Brigham,

It is this spirit that is the "voice of the Lord" whether directly from the lord or through his servants.

How can we know if someone is speaking by the Holy Ghost?

We know that others are speaking by the Power of the Holy Ghost only when we ourselves are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. In this way, it is entirely up to us to determine when others are speaking as inspired by the Holy Ghost. This places the responsibility squarely on us to learn to recognize truth by the personal promptings of the Spirit. When we can do this, then we are built upon the Rock from which if we build, we can never fall. Hence the promise comes, because we cannot fall.

So, to recap, the only things we have to do to become perfect in this life are:
1. Humility - teachable, begins by accepting that we have room to progress or improve.
2. Faith - Ability to believe we can become perfect in this life.
3. A Pure Heart - Actions are inline with intentions, Not necessarily meaning that we have good intentions, but that our actions are inline with our hearts.
4. Charity - We have pure love Like, For and From Christ. Our hearts are changed from evil to good. From hate to love.
5. Obey the Voice of God - Learn to recognize and obey the Holy Ghost.

And it will take longer than that if they never learn to apply these 5 things, which coincidentally are the same as, Faith, Repentance, Baptism (Water & Spirit) receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and being seal by the Holy Spirit of Promise which D&C 76:50-53 says, those who do this are "just men made perfect", D&C 76:69.

How To Become Perfect Studies Doctrine Mormon

We will probably continue to disagree on this point but it has been and interesting discussion.
I just have a few questions so that I may understand your view on mortal perfection
Are you saying that once someone is Mortally Perfected, then they can do no sin the rest of their life?
Is perfection reached in a moment or must one do it line upon line precept upon precept?
The perfection you are speaking of implies a complete endowment of all of God's power immediately in this life. Does this not take into account that progression has been described as something that takes many years rather then in one glorious moment
Is perfection a result of a visit from heavenly beings?
It it really possible to know someone else is perfect?

I just do not believe we can reach the level of Mortal perfection that Christ achieved. Nor do I do believe (of course this does not mean it is not so) God makes us perfect (Mortal Perfection) in one single event as you are describing.
Amonhi's How to become perfect model.
1. Humility
2. Faith
3. A Pure Heart
4. Charity
5. Obey the Voice of God
This is a great road to perfection but it is a road. We progress through Sanctification and the Perfecting(over and extended period of time) process.
from Doctrine and Covenant 93:13,20 all words in parenthesis are my thoughts

Passing through the veil and communicating with other post mortal beings is not a synonym for perfection
Just for clarities sake, are you implying that Joseph Smith became perfect the moment he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ in the Sacred Grove?

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE That is that we must stop relying on authorities and receive all truth from the witness of the "only sure teacher of truth", the Holy Ghost. Of course we have to learn to rely on the teachings of the Holy Spirit, but we still are bound to follow earthly counsel of Prophets and Apostles. Perfection as you seem to define it cannot be achieved without following the counsel of the Lord's Anointed.

Of course we have to learn to rely on the teachings of the Holy Spirit, but we still are bound to follow earthly counsel of Prophets and Apostles. Perfection as you seem to define it cannot be achieved without following the counsel of the Lord's Anointed.

Page 5 Perfect To How

I am willing to answer any sincere questions you have, however, because of the limited writing space per response, I would prefer if you would ask me only 1 or 2 at a time.

Short answer: Yes
Long Answer:
Sin comes because there is a law. Without a law, there is no sin, but there is still mistake, (Mistakes are when you do something that doesn't get you the results you want.) There are many scriptures that tell us that sin is only possible under the law, here are a few:

There are two laws, the lower = Carnal Commandments, and the Higher Law = No commandments/Laws, self governed by love. The Gospel is actually centered in the lower law. It focuses on the law, sin, repentance, and getting out from under the law. Because we weren't able to live the higher law, we are given this lower law, where we have to be told how many earrings we can wear. This Gospel was given to us in God's Wrath, because he wasn't happy that he had to give us the lower law or Aaronic/Levitical Priesthood, and does not include the Holy Ghost/personal revelation.

Paul explains how we escape the lower or carnal law in Gal. 3. As you read, realize that the promise is C&E which is the gate by which we exit the law and leave sin behind...

So law cannot disannul the promise or make it of none effect. The law was given UNTIL the seed should return to the maker of the promise. But there is more, Paul continues and tells us how to escape the curse of the law and therefore the curse of sin...

So once we have gained the promise, we are no longer under the law which was a schoolmaster to teach and bring us to the promise. Without the law there can be no sin which is when we break the law.

We get out from under the law by Changing our hearts, (true Repentance), and gaining the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost which brings with it the fulness of Charity.

Now, truly there is still a law, but it is a higher law and does not include commandments and outward ordinances. The new law comes from within and is written on our hearts which can adapt and change to law or rules according to loves pleasure. They are not and cannot be written in cold hard unbending stone as the lower law can be.

Christ exampled this as he did not obey the lower law which commanded "stone the harlot caught in the act". He lived by "Love", which is the name of Christ that we must take on and act under. If we are to come to Christ we must come to love and be perfected in love. Then we know God and will be like God. Perfected and no longer under the law or able to sin against the law. At this point, sin is no longer acts or deeds against the law, but it is based on intents and motives (love vs hate). There is now only one way to sin; by returning to Satan/hate, leaving Christ/love. We can as Cain did leave the higher law after knowing it. But this must be by choice, not by accident.) So, unless a person becomes a son of perdition, they do not continue in sin. And they actually obey all the laws and prophets because the laws and prophets teachings are based on the principles of love, (Matt. 22:35-40)
There is much more that could be said on this subject, but the limits of this forum prevent me from writing more. (Probably a good thing...)

Disclaimer: Everything I say, (as well as any other person), is to be considered the philosophies of men mingled with scripture, or in other words, OPINION unless you personally receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, in which case it is scripture, it is the will of the Lord, the mind of the Lord, the word of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. D&C 68:4

Edited: Amonhi on 25th Oct, 2007 - 4:37pm

Perfect To How

I have heard a lot of talks and lessons lately concerning becoming perfected in concepts rather then perfect in all things in this life.


From The Message:
Language of the Spirit
by Elder Boyd K. Packer

It has been suggested that we can be perfect in tithing, keeping the word of wisdom, or other commandments, as we choose to follow them better.

I think we should focus on becoming sanctified through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and then allowing the influence of the Holy Spirit to mold us into the men and women we should be. In this view of perfection it is a gradual change that comes over us a little at a time until that day when we are perfect in all things.

How To Become Perfect

Perfection comes from doing a series of works as you are told do it without deviating. You can try to complicate the issue by dding this or that, but perfection really is simple as far as the tasks are concerned, Jesus Christ was the one who did the difficult part, remember Gethsemane?

How To Perfect - Page 5

Notice two things. If we are focusing on works or acts, then we are trying to earn(become) perfection by the law of dead works. If perfection comes by perfect obedience to the law then there is no need for an atonement.

The Aaronic priesthood gives us the law of "carnal commandments" which God gave in his wrath. D&C 84:27 And this lower law and its ordinances cannot save us. They are dead works by themselves.

So, How is it that our whole lives we have learned that baptism is the Gate by which we should enter, and here it says that baptism is part of the law of Moses and it, in itself, is not the gate? I have been baptised. Can I then say that I have lived that law of baptism perfectly and so I have entered the gate? No. It is a dead work and a symbol which points to the living truth.

The people 2000+ years ago thought that circumcision, killing animals and obeying all the other ordinances and commandments of the law would bring them salvation and qualify them for the blessings of God. But they were wrong. So too do we today think that "doing" dead works, tithing, home teaching, fasting, etc. will save us. But these things are just laws, and no person will become perfect by wearing only 1 set of earrings...

Here is the kicker, perfect people break the laws. Because perfection does not come by the law, that is not a problem. I am sure sirens are going off all over in your heads right now. But consider the following:
Would a perfect person ever kill or order the murder of the innocent?
I selected this question because it would appear to be an obvious and resounding NO! (It also brings emotional attachment to the answer.)
No, I will not use Nephi to solidify my point, because Laman was clearly not innocent. Instead, consider God's multiple commands to utterly destroy the innocent "infants and sucklings", 1 Samuel 15:2-3, and when God killed all the first born males of egypt, including the innocent babies, Ex. 12:12, 29. And yet God is perfect.
The truth is that by living the law perfectly we will eventually be faced with breaking the law to do good. There was a high priest I knew who, when prompted by the spirit asked a non-member husband to participate in blessing his wife. (A known no no to most priesthood holders.) The result was that spirit testified to the man and he was baptised 2 weeks later.
My point - Living the law perfectly does not make us perfect, even if we are perfect in the law. So, pay tithing, keep the word of wisdom, and wear your finest clothes to church, and pray at least 3 times a day. But realize, none of these actions has any bearing on how well we know God, or how perfect we are. Even the publicans prayed in the streets and did the works the world calls righteous, but they have their reward. And so do we if we think that doing a series of works will make us perfect. (In works there is always progression and improvement.)
Perfection comes when we have cleansed the inner vessel, and not fancied the outer vessel for show. So, what then is the gate if it is not baptism or any other part of the law of the law of Moses? Can you answer me that?

How To Perfect Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 5

I agree with you Amonhi that we cannot become perfect by doing works. I do, however, believe one is not perfect until his fruits reflect his redeemed state. As pertaining to perfection it is Christ who ultimately Redeems and Sanctifies us (not our works), and it is he who lifts us up to be able to dwell with the Father.

According to all Prophets since Adam, obedience to certain requirements in the Gospel of Jesus Christ have been a necessary prerequisite for The Holy Spirit to continue to Sanctify us and thus Perfect us. Without these Ordinances we cannot enter the Celestial Kingdom. The fourth article of faith is still in affect and I believe it will alway be such in this life.

The scripture you quoted had a historical context that cannot be ignored. Some were complaining that they had already received Baptism, but Joseph Smith pointed out that Baptism must be received in the newly formed Church just organized in April 1930. Baptism was still necessary and will always be necessary to enter the Celestial Kingdom.

From the D&C 22 introduction.

As to Baptism being a dead work, the Gate to the Celestial Kingdom is still Baptism by immersion.

Elder David Bednar explains this much better then I can.

Without Baptism, The Holy spirit cannot remain with us. Without the Constant companionship of the Holy Spirit we cannot become perfect.

Also, as we become sanctified and more perfected we desire to obey the commandments as outlined in the Holy Scriptures. Obedience is the natural offspring of the perfecting power of the Savior. If our fruits (obedience) are not righteous then we ourselves cannot be perfected, as no unclean thing can enter the Kingdom of God. If we continue to knowingly do unrighteous things without repenting the atonement can have no affect over us and we cannot become perfect.

So yes, I believe that we have to strive to "choose the right" not because we are trying to earn our perfection, but because as the Savior changes us, we desire to become more like him. We choose to do our home teaching not because we want to gain "brownie points" in heaven, but because we want to show love for our fellow man. We choose to accept callings not for the glory of men, but because we want to magnify our priesthood calling. I just believe that as we become more perfected, we naturally want to do those things the Savior or God would do if they were here.