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How To Become Perfect - Page 6

I think you are reading into what I said too much. The Plan is lots simpler than what you want to make it out to be. Everything we can achieve is made possible by Jesus Christ and the Atonement, and now here is the punch line, based on things we need to do. In other words it is not a free for all, but we do have to do some things.

Are you a member of the church? What you refer to as a dead work is one in the line of many things we need to do to make the Atonement work for us. It is really simple and I find that when members try to confuse themselves by making things complicated they are just making life difficult, its as simple as that.

Perfect To How

What a strange question. (Almost as if that some how determines whether I am to be given credit or not.) The answer is yes. I will not go into my past or current callings as I do not want that to have any influence on the credibility of my words. I will say that I, as do all of us, teach "religion" which is the philosophies of men mingled with scripture and it is up to each person to discover the scripture by using the power of the Holy Ghost.
You are right, it is very simple. But, it in its does not work the way most have been taught through the traditions of our fathers. The result is that praying to God can be evil, and doing good deeds for the hopes of reward will be our downfall. (Moro. 7)
You say that baptism "is one in the line of many things we need to do", but the truth is after we do all the things, baptism through temple sealing, we are still not perfect, nor have we done anything which has ultimately guaranteed any blessing from God, including the blessings of the atonement. So doing all these "things" does not "do it" in regards to our salvation or exaltation. So they are all considered dead works because they cannot produce life.
Compare Matt. 7:13-23 with Moro. 7:6-19. They are telling us the same message.

What are the fruits by which we recognize the false prophets, (wolves) from the true prophets? It is not their actions or deeds. Neither do actions or deeds make us perfect and it is vain and prideful to think they do.

You are right, but what are the fruits? They are not works, and the scriptures are very clear that the fruits are not obedience/works/deeds/actions/positions etc. By what fruits do we know them? (Fruit does not equal actions.)
regarding baptism or any other ordinance been a dead work, meaning not producing life, ask the questions: Does this ordinanceguaranteee eternal life or even any degree of glory no matter how small?
In the ancient days, they did animal sacrifices and called them sin offerings. If you wanted to repent of a particular sin, you offered a particular animal and the priests killed it in a particular way. It was easy to think that this act actually gave you a remission of sins. Baptism in itself does not remit sins any more than offering an animal sacrifice did. An unworthy person being baptised is no cleaner after the ordinance then they are before, even if they lied to the bishop or the elders to have the ordinance done. I have known people who had sexual relationships, among other things, days before being married in the temple and lied to save face. Were they worthy of the endowment? No and they didn't receive the spiritual endowment even though they received the physical one. And they were no closer to knowing how to walk past the sentinels into the presence of God after the ordinance than they were before. These are all dead works, or symbols of the living works.
These ordinances are part of the lower law and were given to us because of our dead works.

the funny thing is that when we get to the true living ordinances, they are done without physical ordinances. Examples of this are Nephi receiving the Sealing power from the voice of God, (Hel. 10), being baptised by the Holy Ghost and not knowing it, (3Ne. 9:20), and how most people receive their calling & election without the laying on of hands.
Dbackers you are right that it is the motivation behind the action that counts. Because an evil person giving a gift or praying is still an evil person. And even if that evil person could over centuries learn to live the law perfectly, he is still an evil person, and will not be found in the celestial kingdom. That is why the path is straight and narrow and few there be that find it.
the general idea is we do good because we are good, not for any other reason. This being the case, we cannot do good in hoping to become good, because we cannot server two masters. We first clean the inward vessel not focusing on our actions, then our actions will change as you said naturally and without effort. But if you focus on the actions, without first changing the heart, then we must deal with internal conflicts associated with serving two masters. By focusing on the outward actions we remain evil and attempt to save ourselves by obedience to the law.
This is why a person can change in an instant to a perfected state. The ONLY 1 thing we have to change is our heart. Once that 1 thing is changed, then we become good, and born of God. ("For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good:"(Moro. 7:6), and in the same manner, a man being good cannot do that which is evil. This is the lesson of Moro 7 & Matt. 7.

The key question we are asking in these last few posts is: What are the fruits of the righteous? You are saying, as most people believe, the fruits are actions and works. I am saying they are not. By their fruits ye shall know them. If the fruits were actions, then I would be able to tell the difference between an evil man who is praying, and a righteous man praying, but I can't. both are praying, works says both are good, but they aren't says Moroni 7. But I can tell the difference between the two by their fruit. So, what is the fruit? How do we recognize it? In the answer we will find a key to perfection. The fruits are....

Disclaimer: Everything I say, (as well as any other person), is to be considered the philosophies of men mingled with scripture, or in other words, OPINION unless you personally receive a witness from the Holy Ghost, in which case it is scripture, it is the will of the Lord, the mind of the Lord, the word of the Lord, the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. D&C 68:4

How To Become Perfect Studies Doctrine Mormon

First off I normally do not reply to long winded Posts because it is too taxing and I believe a lot can be said in a few lines, however I think you need to be careful how you reach your conclusions. For instance, I understand what you are trying to say in the piece I quoted, however you are setting up your own perimeter. First of all who is worthy to be baptized? What is being worthy before the act? When the eunuch came before Phillip (Acts) and heard the word the only thing he was asked is if he believed in Christ, was he worthy at that time?

Next, as I pointed out before this Thread is about the first Post which says:

In other words it is not perceptions of what is dead and spiritual laws and indepth anlysis, it is about the feeling that we get along the way. This is about those who beat up themselves because they feel they can never reach the kind of perfection necessary to be deserving of the love the Lord has for them.

The process - step by step - if that is what you are after is had ONLY in the Mature LDS Board.

Page 6 Perfect To How

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE ...you are setting up your own perimeter. - JB I don't understand what you are saying, please clarify. QUOTE First of all who is worthy to be baptized? What is being worthy before the act? When the eunuch came before Phillip (Acts) and heard the word the only thing he was asked is if he believed in Christ, was he worthy at that time? - JB Only God truly knows and so this has been placed in God's hands. QUOTE "And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, ...are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." - D&C 132:7 This places worthiness questions squarely in the hands of the God who is the judge of all. So, those who go to the temple unworthy are not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and those who are worthy are sealed. This is the same thing with all ordinances. Every ordinance must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise or it is not honored by God in this life or the next. This also goes for becoming perfect or "Born Again".

I don't understand what you are saying, please clarify.

Only God truly knows and so this has been placed in God's hands.

This places worthiness questions squarely in the hands of the God who is the judge of all. So, those who go to the temple unworthy are not sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and those who are worthy are sealed. This is the same thing with all ordinances. Every ordinance must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise or it is not honored by God in this life or the next. This also goes for becoming perfect or "Born Again".

I'm glad you clarified because I was going on the Title of the Thread. In any case, I think you killed the thread with your last post... (but maybe not, we'll see.)

Perfect To How

I agree, this does happen sometimes to many of us (myself included).


Perfection in this life is not a prerequisite for exaltation in the next. That is why I believe that if we, after receiving the ordinances of the Gospel, are striving to live according to the knowledge that we have received and are repenting of our sins, and then are relying on the Lord to change our hearts then we are in fact doing most of what we need to do.

How To Become Perfect

I think we have all been there and done that. I have know a number of people who felt the pressure, of needing to live the laws and requirements of the church, so much that they became chronically depressed and at least 2 people who have committed suicide because no matter how hard they tried they could never do it. And when they realized that they never could because it was an impossibility, they lost all hope.
This problem is far more common in the church than most think. many time counsel has come down from the top to the Stake Pres. and Bishops regarding the sensitivity of these matters. Women tend to feel this more, but men are not immune, (my experience). And it is all resolved when the person focuses not on living the laws, but on changing the heart. As Mosiah said,

In the same way, those who desire to do all but are unable to are still guiltless, because they have cleansed the inner vessel. This one doctrine alone which is directly connected to a firm understanding of Sin and Transgression and the love of God has brought hope and cured depression for 100's of people.

How To Perfect - Page 6

"We can have eternal life if we want it, but only if there is nothing else we want more."
Ref. (Bruce C. Hafen, "The Atonement: All for All," Ensign, May 2004, 98)

How To Perfect Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 6

I've pondered this many times and have come to see that perfection is really the simplest form of everything. We tend to complicate what is really simple. For instance we put ourselves in this routine of meetings, things to study and people to talk with at church hoping to be more spiritual but when someone asks for our help we say we're too busy attending all those meetings, studying and talking.