Post Date: 16th Sep, 2008 - 11:03pm
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Notes About Church Of First Born - Page 2
Of course you know I was going to disagree with you on this a little, but I do find some things I can agree on. I believe that it is important for all people to be a prophet unto themselves (able to testify that Jesus is the christ) and that the Church must have a largely spiritual component to it for it to be valid. But I believe that the Church on the other side should closely resembles the Church on this side (without all the drama and errors that we see so often by imperfect men). This belief is just that, a belief. I have never believed that we must seek or find approval in other men, and I do not feel this is the way the Church is organized(or should be).
But I am one that believes that the other side closely resembles the organization of life on this side (we will associate with people we are comfortable with), and like here, we will have tasks (callings?) that we do to increase the happiness of our fellow men.
I do not see the role of a President of Church as of any more value then the Nursery Leader, but there has to be order (every man has his calling). It is only because of our own prejudices and vanity where we see a person in a so called higher calling being of more importance. But I do believe that as a calling, a Prophet (president of the church) has been called to lead and direct the work of the Church here on Earth. I believe that without the Earthly Church (as organized by Joseph Smith in 1930), no one would have knowledge of the Church of the Firstborn (there would no members on this earth). Without the Earthly Church, We would still be under the influence of the false trinitarian belief in a non corporeal God, without a knowledge that we can literally be like unto God. Without the Earthly Church we would still believe in the false idea of the unapproachable God. To me the Church of the first born is the perfect manifestation of the Church of Jesus Christ here on Earth, not a separate entity.
D&C 132: 8, 18
8 Behold, mine house is a house of order, saith the Lord God, and not a house of confusion.
Organization to me seems like a prerequisite for Heavenly Church or it is a house of confusion.
When Jesus organized 12 apostles in the New Testament he was setting up his earthly church in similitude of his heavenly Church (evidenced by the fact that he still has his twelve apostles in heaven)
When one quotes the scripture.
that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh
He is automatically taking the counsel of a fellow man (Joseph Smith). When one interprets the scripture to mean that we must not have any earthly organization he had to receive this knowledge from another person first (parents, prophets, teachers).
No one lives in a vacuum, so any information concerning the initial knowledge of the Church of the First born must come from an earthly person. After we have a rudimentary knowledge of the higher law from men, we can then seek to receive higher knowledge first hand from the source.
But are we forgetting another quote in the same Chapter
4 And the voice of warning shall be unto all people, by the mouths of my disciples, whom I have chosen in these last days.
Are we not relying on the counsel of men when we listen to the warning of his disciples
Furthermore in the same Chapter we see that some men are given his authority to seal both in heaven and on earth. Prophets and apostles are those that have been given this authority. They may also give this authority to other to do this work.
6 Behold, this is mine authority, and the authority of my servants...that they who go forth, bearing these tidings unto the inhabitants of the earth, to them is power given to seal both on earth and in heaven, the unbelieving and rebellious;
More evidence of the importance of listening to Prophets
And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;
More evidence that the lord requires all men to hear the words of the prophets. In fact the whole Chapter is about a servant of the Lord called to lead the Church and it would be hard to miss this point. God warned that:
every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own god, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth fold and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall.
17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
This Chapter does not seem to imply that having a Prophet/servant is a Negative thing. In fact it seems to imply that this is imperative while we are on earth. An organization of people who say they are of the Church of the First Born, who sperate themselves from the earthly Church, seems to be walking in his own way. But I can see the argument on the other side which would say that the Church is becoming comfortable with Babylon. I don't believe it, but I can see that argument.
Post Date: 17th Sep, 2008 - 4:27pm
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Born Of Church Notes
|there has to be order (every man has his calling). |
God's ways are not man's ways. There is an order, but it appears to be cause to the standards of men and miraculously everything is done as if directed by a great conductor. Not organized by men with leaders, but organized by Gods.
All callings come with "Inspired Desires", not from men issuing the call and you accepting it. This results in our happiness as we serve according to our inspired desires. This is "the bee principle".
The Bee Principle:
- Bees spend all day doing what they do. They are happy, (Trust me), filling the measure of their creation.
- Without knowing exactly all the good they are doing, they focus on what makes them happy.
- It ends up that what makes them happy is also essential to pollinating plants, making honey, and other wonderful things.
- They don't try to do their home and visiting teaching, (making honey). It is natural and inspired and calculated to make them happy.
- If we follow our inspired desires, we become like the Bees. We do everything needed to move the plan forward. And without trying, we end up doing wonderful things which we may or may not understand fully.
Examples of this are the 3 witnesses who had an inspired desire, Joseph Smith, anyone who accomplishes great good. A great leader is not and cannot be called by another. They must be called by God and receive an inspired desire or they will not become a great leader. We have relatively few great leaders in the LDS Church. (We have many great followers though.)
The doctrine is found in the D&C 4:3, "Therefore, if ye have desires to serve God ye are called to the work;"
In the church it works the other way, You are called and then try to get the desire and so often fight upstream. So programs like Home and visiting teaching have a terrible time because people don't like doing it. Then we start to manipulate people into do it by using words like, duty, expectation, requirement and other guilt and shame based tools to get people to fulfill callings. This is not in every case, I agree. Just far too often. And never happens in the Church of the First Born. All callings are issued by inspired desire never by leaders, (which don't really exist in the CoFB), and so we find joy and inspiration in doing good. By the way, there is a difference between a desire and an inspired desire.
|But I do believe that as a calling, a Prophet (president of the church) has been called to lead and direct the work of the Church here on Earth.|
I agree, he is called to lead and direct the LDS church, not the CoFB. They are different organizations completely.
|I believe that the Church on the other side should closely resembles the Church on this side (without all the drama and errors that we see so often by imperfect men). |
This is true, it resembles the LDS church on the other side of the veil, not to be confused with the Church of the First Born on the other side of the veil. 2 different churches, 2 structures, 2 organizations, different churches for different purposes.
The LDS churches purposes:
- Redeem the dead - Aaronic Priesthood focused on overcoming the effects fall and is part of being saved. Bring to pass the immortality of all man kind.
- Proclaim the Gospel - Still focused on Aaronic Priesthood and passing people off to the Mel. Priesthood via Holy Ghost which teaches all things. Once they have the Holy Ghost, which teaches all things, they have the fulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It has been proclaimed.
- Perfect the Saints - Happens when people receive their calling and election made sure and qualify to live in the CK. They are now built on the rock from which they cannot fall. They are now handed off to the Church of the First Born.
The Church of the First Born purposes:
- Exalt the living - Bring to pass the exaltation of mankind. Teach the principles needed to use the sealing power, over come all things and enjoy the fulness of life available to the Gods.
- Bring as many as will to the Church of the First Born. - D&C 77:11 missionary work to help others receive their calling and election made sure. (Surprise, it can take missionary type work to bring others to the Church of the First Born.) Not by proclaiming the gospel but by teaching as Paul taught,
|"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, |
Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb. 6:1-2
Then he begins talking about how Abraham obtained his promise of exaltation and how God couldn't lie etc. So the LDS church encourages people to go toward perfection and the Church of the First Born has a missionary force, (Very small currently) which help people transition into their calling and election made sure, thus joining the CoFB which no longer teaches repentance, laying on of hands, baptism, eternal judgment or other topics that become irrelevant once you have the promise. Instead, they teach that everything becomes new.
- Perfect Society - Teach the principles required to live among equals without infringing on the agency of others. Teach principles required to live in a celestial Society.
|I believe that without the Earthly Church (as organized by Joseph Smith in 1930), no one would have knowledge of the Church of the Firstborn (there would no members on this earth).|
exactly! The LDS church is a mediating church, a middle kingdom, a way for people to progress from the world to the CK which would be impossible without it.
|To me the Church of the first born is the perfect manifestation of the Church of Jesus Christ here on Earth, not a separate entity.|
They are very much separated. Everything from doctrine to ordinances to organization. Nothing is the same.
|When Jesus organized 12 apostles in the New Testament he was setting up his earthly church in similitude of his heavenly Church (evidenced by the fact that he still has his twelve apostles in heaven)|
This organization does not exist in the CK. It does exist in the spirit world where the spirits are taught the gospel, faith, repentance, baptism and the Holy Ghost. Such roles as the 12 who are traveling special witnesses of Jesus Christ become irrelevant for people who have met Christ and become special witnesses for themselves which happens shortly after receiving your calling and election made sure.
Post Date: 17th Sep, 2008 - 4:28pm
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Notes About Church Of First Born Studies Doctrine Mormon
|When one interprets the scripture to mean that we must not have any earthly organization he had to receive this knowledge from another person first (parents, prophets, teachers).|
Correct. I am not saying that we do not listen to each other or teach each other. I am saying that there are no bishops, stake pres. or presidents of the church. You don't repost to anyone, except God. You are not accountable except to yourself as you suffer in the flesh and are delivered to the buffetings of Satan, but will still be exalted. Meetings and conferences are held as desired to learn something or find out what others are doing in the world. This happens through the communion with the CoFB and the General Assembly.
|After we have a rudimentary knowledge of the higher law from men, we can then seek to receive higher knowledge first hand from the source|
Thus the purpose of the Holy Ghost which is a revelator. No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. And the testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy, and a seer is one who can see the unseen or unknown as in spiritual. So we can all be our own prophets, seers and revelators which are the results of having and relying on the Holy Ghost to teach you all things, which is the rock on which if you build you cannot fall with is the requirement for calling and election made sure. So, if you receive your calling and election made sure, you are built on the rock from which you cannot fall. Not being able to fall = worthy of the CK.
|Furthermore in the same Chapter we see that some men are given his authority to seal both in heaven and on earth. Prophets and apostles are those that have been given this authority.|
The sealing power is given to all who have their calling and election made sure just as it was given to Nephi, to enable them to do good and learn how to be exalted. Let the training begin.
|This Chapter does not seem to imply that having a Prophet/servant is a Negative thing.|
You forgot to include the next verse:
| 17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments; |
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets-
Then explains the part I said about no man counseling his fellow man. Notice that all these things were done to being about the fulfillment of the prophets which said that man should not counsel his fellow man and all would know the Lord. This has not happened yet. But the Lord gave these commandments so that these things could be fulfilled. It is the goal of the Lord and his Church.
|This Chapter does not seem to imply that having a Prophet/servant is a Negative thing. In fact it seems to imply that this is imperative while we are on earth. An organization of people who say they are of the Church of the First Born, who separate themselves from the earthly Church, seems to be walking in his own way. |
prophets are not a negative thing, everyone should try being one! :-) The purpose of being a prophet is to teach others to be prophets. Not to stand on a wall between others and God and tell others what God wants them to know and do. Their role is to lift us over the wall so we can talk to God ourselves.
The LDS church is setup for this purpose. To help others to overcome their walls.
Once you receive your calling and election made sure, you have progressed enough to stand on the wall yourself and help others up too. You can also progress on to exaltation having been saved.
"And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him (Moses), and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD's people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" - Num. 11:25-29
I love how he says, "Why enviest thou for my sake?" Oh, and our dear friend the PROPHET Amos, who said, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the [B]prophets."[/B] How was he called? You won't learn this in church,
| Then answered Amos, and said to Amaziah, I was no prophet, neither was I a prophet's son; but I was an herdman, and a gatherer of sycomore fruit: |
And the Lord took me as I followed the flock, and the Lord said unto me, Go, prophesy unto my people Israel. - Amos 7:14-15
He was saying that he was not a prophet and didn't have any claim or calling that would cause his to be a prophet. He was just a simple herdman, a nobody in religious circles.
He was called by the voice of the Lord while he followed the flock. Surely the Lord will do nothing save he reveals his secrets to his servants which he calls from any place at any time, and not necessarily through the organization of the church as long as they have the Spirit of Prophecy which IS the testimony of Christ.
Why did the Lord create the LDS church?
| For it is because of your dead works that I have caused this last covenant and this church to be built up unto me, even as in days of old. - D&C 22:3|
If it weren't for our dead works we wouldn't need this LDS church which uses dead works to teach us about the living works.