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Mormon Church And Illegal Immigrants - Page 4

It IS criminal if they do not have papers to work. There IS a law in place and if they break it, then they are doing it willingly. Just because some of them do not rape, kill or steal, doesn't mean that what they are doing is right and it doesn't mean either that they are NOT breaking the law. They ARE.

If he guides and permits? Are you suggesting that the Lord is helping people to break the law in order for them to provide better for their families? It seems to me you are mixing up God's wishes and the FREE agency of some of these people who choose to go to the US illegally.

Maybe that's why you do not see anything wrong with what some of these people are doing. As a NON-US citizen who would like the opportunity to live there, I can tell you that I will NOT go there unless I do it through the proper channels. I live in a banana republic with lots of challenges of every kind, yet I do not feel it is appropriate for me to break the law of another country. It is not honest.

Sorry but that statement is absolutely sacrilegious in nature in my opinion.

As a person who have lived in third world countries and who also lived legally in the US for a couple of years, I do KNOW what is like to live in a place where you cannot help your family, where no matter how much you try, the needs are big. Having said that, it is not an excuse to do something dishonest and no matter how much we may try to sugar-coat it, illegal immigration in ANY country is a dishonest act.

And of course, it DOES matter whether that same individual becomes a Bishop who supposedly needs to strengthen AND counsel the members on a variety of issues, including HONESTY. Can a person who is not being honest with the law teach others about being honest? I don't think so.

Immigrants Illegal Church Mormon

Name: Paralegal

Comments: I don't know where to go to quote you.
If these Elders get called on a mission, it is God's will to extend that calling or any other calling in His work. Are you saying God is breaking the law? (Because there have been these type of callings extended to illegals) Are you suggesting that bishops, stake presidents and GA are breaking the law by granting temple recommends to illegals?

Mormon Church And Illegal Immigrants Studies Doctrine Mormon

Is it his will to call Elders who have chastity issues and other related sins who haven't been confessed to a Bishop? My whole point with this last question is to point out the FREE agency here. Do we have missionaries like that in the field? We surely do.

In this case, the Church as a body decides that it is okay for illegal immigrants to serve missions but I won't go as far as to say that's the will of the Lord.

Do you believe every single calling given in Church is through inspiration?

Possibly not breaking the law of the land but let's keep in mind that one of the questions for the temple recommend interview is:

Entering a country illegally, living there, and in some cases even take social security numbers of other people as well as identities is FAR from being honest in your dealings.

Rather off topic, but...
Feel free to register and join our many discussions here so you will be able to quote, etc.

Page 4 Immigrants Illegal Church Mormon

Name: paralegal

Comments: I think you are making it more complicated than what it is, and I think you are stuck in the lesser laws.

What do you mean that you wouldn't say it is the will of the Lord to have these Elders preach His gospel? It is the will of the Lord. He does extend these callings. It is His work. Don't you think that if it was not His will, His Prophet would not allow these Elders to serve a mission?
I agree with you that there are several young men who don't confess their unworthiness and do serve a mission, but there is a big difference here. These young men don't confess it, so The Church doesn't know it. On the other hand, The Church does know these Elders legal status. Big difference in my opinion.

Bottom line is: We are all His children, and I don't think the Lord would deny the blessings of attending His house (temple) or serving in His work just because one doesn't have a piece of paper. If they are honest, hard working, I don't see a problem with it. I mean, yeah; they should get their legal status corrected, don't get me wrong. And they do, as soon as they can, at least that is what I know. But if they haven't just yet, I don't think we should "crucify" them for that (speaking figuratively). Much less think that they are not deserving of entering the Temple or serve The Lord just because we think they are criminals in our judgment. Who are we to restrict them of that?

Like I said, I think you are getting caught up in the lesser points. While they are violating a law by not having legal status, they are (most of them, and these are whom I am referring to) honest, hard working people. They don't steal, they earn what they get. If you think you would not pursue a better opportunity, it must be because you have, at least, a good lifestyle where you are. I would guess. But that is just my guess.

Immigrants Illegal Church Mormon

Paralegal, I think the difference of our opinion resides in the fact that you do not seem to think that being illegal in a country is a dishonest act and I think it is. They are NOT legal in the country and they are taking social security numbers of other people, fake documents, etc, I really do not know why you cannot see this as being dishonest.

Therefore:

What a contradiction! So they are violating the laws of the land willingly yet "most" of them according to you are honest? Just because someone does not steal or fraud people by the millions does not mean they are honest. One proves honesty with our dealings to our fellowmen, the little things we do every day. Nothing to do with "lesser laws", this is the LAW (so are they sinning "a little"?). We can water it down if we wish but the bottom line IS that they are being dishonest with their fellowmen, to God and with the law. Justifying this is justifying breaking the law.

Mormon Church And Illegal Immigrants

Name: Paralegal

Comments: You are missing the point here. They have fake documents not by choice. That is the only option they have, for now. They don't like it, but that is the only option they have for now. They don't have spare money to cover the expense of their legalization, they don't have the money to survive 5, 10 even 15 yrs while their situation is resolved. You see why they have to do it that way? It's not really an option. You accuse them as being dishonest for trying to provide a better life for their families? NO. That is not dishonesty, that is admirable. IF they could afford the expense, they wouldn't be here at all because they would have a fair enough lifestyle and would not consider going through all the hardships the go thru. Do you think they enjoy it? ! They don't have that kind of money. Just because some have a decent lifestyle in third world countries, doesn't mean all do.

As for me, I don't see it that wrong, and I will absolutely not judge them, especially if The Church doesn't.

Mormon Church Illegal Immigrants - Page 4

Not by choice? Whose choice is it then? I don't think I am missing any points. I think your position is that you do not see anything wrong, morally wrong with people breaking the law. It is fine, it is your opinion and of course you are entitled to it. I do not share the same sentiment at all, I think it's crazy actually to think that they "must" fake documents because they do not have other "choice" and at the same time subject people (legal US citizens) to endless headaches because someone has stolen their identities and have applied for loans, etc. I don't understand how you cannot see anything wrong with it. There is a lot of naivety in this position. There IS always a choice (unless someone puts a gun in your head and tells you otherwise) and they have made it, WILLINGLY.

Please, do not put words in my mouth that I haven't said. I never accused them as being dishonest for trying to provide a better life for their families. My issue is the fact that they are breaking the law. THAT'S dishonest.

Mormon Church Illegal Immigrants Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

Name: Paralegal

Comments: What? . . . I can't believe it is so hard for YOU to see the big picture.

Simple, if The Prophet of God does not judge them, and think they deserve to hold a temple recommend, and serve The Lord. WHO are we to judge them based on worldly laws?

Doesn't that tell you anything?