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Related Information to Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or RevengeGuantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge - Page 7 of 38
First of all, power corrupts and abosolute - Page 7 - Politics, Business, Civil, History - Posted: 29th Jan, 2005 - 5:12pm
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Fair treatment? Related Information to Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge
Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge - Page 7
| QUOTE (MrB @ 6-May 04, 8:46 AM) |
| The term illegal combatants was US invention in order to circumvent international law. If a uniform is the criteria, what about the CIA, FBI and those private enterprise individuals/consultants fighting for big bucks?? |
This conversation always sticks in my mind. So, when I followed some links and ended up at a very interesting discussion about "unlawful combatants" and how they are viewed worldwide, I thought it might be useful for this discussion.
https://volokh.com/2004_04_18_volokh_archiv...256839347710402
I don't know who the author is, I don't know where he comes from, or what his general views are. I will eventually read some more of his blog and try to learn.
The thing is, he makes some excellent points, and includes a bit of historical information to back them up.
| QUOTE |
| 1. There's nothing at all novel about the concept of an enemy detainee who isn't a POW. To the best of my knowledge, the practice of civilized nations has long recognized that there are two categories of wartime military captives. The first involves (more or less) soldiers who were fighting in uniform within organized command structures; these are generally seen as being entitled to "prisoner of war" status, which means ( a ) humane treatment, ( b ) limits on certain kinds of interrogations, and ( c ) immunity from being tried for actions that consist of "lawful warfare," e.g., shooting at our soldiers (while fighting in uniform within organized command structures). Usually shooting at a U.S. soldier is murder or attempted murder, and voluntarily being part of a group that goes to shoot at a U.S. soldier is conspiracy to commit murder. But if you're doing it while fighting in uniform within organized command structures, you get immunity from that sort of punishment -- though you may still be detained as a POW for the duration of the war, and in some measure beyond the cessation of hostilities. The second category, which I stress again has long been recognized by "the laws of war" -- in America, it dates back to the Revolutionary War, as the Supreme Court recognized in Ex parte Quirin -- is that of unlawful combatants. The quintessential examples are spies and saboteurs, but more generally it also includes soldiers who do not fight in uniform within organized command structures. Unlawful combatants are generally not protected in the ways I describe above; they have many fewer rights (I speak here of rights under international conventions and conventional practice) than lawful POWs. In particular, unlawful combatants may be tried and often executed for their unlawful conduct; they don't have the "lawful combatant" immunity from murder laws, for example. |
Another point to consider is that these "unlawful combatants", are being held while attempting to determine their status. They are not being held in punishment, but they are confined to keep the most dangerous out of circulation while it is determined whether they are actually combatants, innocents caught up in the situation, or spies/saboteurs (illegal combatants).
Again, the US and the UK are the only places in history that has put forth this much effort to ensure that justice is done in such a situation. Every other nation in a similar case has treated such unlawful combatants as spies, and (normally) summarily executed them. This includes the "compassionate" nations of Europe, such as France, Germany, and Spain.
| QUOTE |
| If a uniform is the criteria, what about the CIA, FBI and those private enterprise individuals/consultants fighting for big bucks?? |
Most, if not all, those individuals/consultants are NOT fighting. They are forbidden to fight, even to carry arms to protect themselves in the war zone. I don't believe that the CIA/FBI are carrying arms either, although I could be wrong. They certainly aren't involved in combat (unless they are ambushed). They aren't combat trained, and are leaving it up to the Marines.
Update: The link may not work, since the URL redirect messes up the information. I will try to fix it. After you close the redirect window, copy and paste this: #108256839347710402 to the end in your browser address window. That should get you to the right piece.
Edited: JB@Trinidad on 23rd Jun, 2004 - 7:26pmInternational Level: International Guru / Political Participation: 854 
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Post Date: 3rd Jul, 2004 - 9:16pm / Post ID: #
Revenge Justice Prisoners Guantanamo
I have a few comments regarding U.S. policy towards prisoners, and about Abu Ghraib in particular.
The legal memos which have surfaced so far make it increasingly clear the Bush administration consciously decided to implement interrogation methods that violated the Geneva Conventions, and that they sought to justify their decisions and protect themselves through legal means.
However, it is highly unlikely that any paper trail will show that Bush knew and approved of the depraved abuse that took place at Abu Ghraib prison. It is more likely the president was unaware of the details. Most Americans would probably agree in the post-9/11 world that coercive methods are justified to extract information which could prevent terrorist attacks. Opponents of Bush who express moral outrage over Abu Ghraib are often met with the argument that terrorist atrocities are much worse and that our indictments of American prison guards demonstrate the difference between us and the terrorists.
Personally I reject any argument that absolves our crimes by comparing us to terrorists. We are responsible for our own actions and should hold ourselves to a higher standard.
Although I am sympathetic to innocent victims of torture (many of the prisoners of Abu Ghraib were merely bystanders who were picked up), what really concerns me is the damage inflicted upon the moral authority of the United States. This is not some abstract concept -- it has real world consequences. In the deeply conservative Muslim culture, images of naked Iraqi men being abused by grinning American servicemen and women will recruit more terrorists than any audio tape issued by Osama bin Laden. Innocent people will die as a result. The recent beheadings have been cited as justification for any measures we take, but these murders are more significant as the beginning of the blowback from Abu Ghraib.
Whatever steps forward we have taken in Iraq have come at a tremendous cost in blood and treasure. With Abu Ghraib, we have taken steps backward. The real scandal is that a colossal failure in leadership and command has hurt the mission for which our troops are sacrificing so much.
This failure in leadership goes straight up to the White House. The legal memos reveal that senior Bush officials were keenly aware of interrogation methods that amounted to torture. Even if torture under certain circumstances is justified, and if they never specifically approved the depravities committed at Abu Ghraib, they are still responsible for what happened. They had to know that a policy of torture must be controlled under very tight supervision to keep it from getting out of hand. The Bush administration was careful to establish legal safeguards for themselves, but they were careless in their failure to issue commands that might have prevented the debacle of Abu Ghraib.
The irresponsibility of the president and his team has increased the threat of terrorism and made the mission of our troops more difficult and deadly. For this, they must be held accountable.
Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge History & Civil Business Politics
| QUOTE |
| The Defense Department, responding to Supreme Court rulings, will create a panel of military officers to review whether prisoners at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, are being held legally and will notify them within 10 days of their right to contest their detention in U.S. courts, officials said Wednesday. https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5388908/ |
At first glance I thought this meant finally they were going to be dealt with "fairly." However, after reading the article, I am not so sure. What do you think.
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Revenge Justice Prisoners Guantanamo
I just tried the link and it works for me. Try just typing the url for msnbc.com in your browser and then click on the link from there. The article is highlighted on the front page.
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Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge
Recently the US government acknowledged that some of the prisoners in Guantanamo are held there because of confessions that they have made under torture. It goes against the US law to hold someone based on a confession you got through torture and also it is against the Genova Convention. What are your thoughts?.
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Guantanamo Prisoners Justice Revenge - Page 7
I read these news today and I was extremely upset and angry about it. I could not believe that someone will actually do something like that in order to get information. 
Is this fair treatment for prisoners who have not being charged or have access to a lawyer???!!!. Heck no!!!!. I am not defending anyone here but I hope we do not wonder later on why some Muslims may hate some Americans so much. And no...this is NOT about being an anti-American, this is about common sense and fair treatment of prisoners, no matter who they are. Read the whole article. This is just a little part:
Guantanamo interrogation tactics exposed
13:59 AEDT Fri Jan 28 2005
AP - Female interrogators tried to break Muslim detainees at the US prison camp in Guantanamo Bay by sexual touching, wearing a miniskirt and thong underwear and in one case smearing a Saudi man's face with fake menstrual blood, according to an insider's written account.
A draft manuscript obtained by The Associated Press is classified as secret pending a Pentagon review for a planned book that details ways the US military used women as part of tougher physical and psychological interrogation tactics to get terror suspects to talk.
It's the most revealing account so far of interrogations at the secretive detention camp, where officials say they have halted some controversial techniques.
"I have really struggled with this because the detainees, their families and much of the world will think this is a religious war based on some of the techniques used, even though it is not the case," the author, former Army Sergeant Erik R Saar, 29, told AP.
Saar didn't provide the manuscript or approach AP, but confirmed the authenticity of nine draft pages AP obtained. He requested his hometown remain private so he wouldn't be harassed. Saar worked as an Arabic translator at the US camp in eastern Cuba from December 2002 to June 2003. At the time, it was under the command of Major General Geoffrey Miller, who had a mandate to get better intelligence from prisoners, including alleged al-Qaeda members caught in Afghanistan.
Saar said he witnessed about 20 interrogations and about three months after his arrival at the remote US base he started noticing "disturbing" practices....
https://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=36792
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Post Date: 29th Jan, 2005 - 5:12pm / Post ID: #
Guantanamo Prisoners Justice Revenge Politics Business Civil & History - Page 7
First of all, power corrupts and abosolute power corrupts absolutely. This is true no matter what side of the fence you are on. The problem with what is going on at Guantanamo Bay and other 'secret' camps is that there is no accountability, and without it, there are doubtless 'abu ghraib' type situations going on..we just don't hear about them.
This is indeed a new war with new rules..the problem is 'new rules' don't and shouldn't mean 'no rules at all'. Once again, there needs to be more accountability.
TOPIC: Guantanamo Prisoners: Justice or Revenge