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Politics - Hawai'ian Sovereignty and U.S. Imperial - Page 3

Farseer, what do you think should happen?  I certainly don't see how one can suggest committing another wrong in order to attempt to right a wrong done in the past.  So, what suggestion(s) do you have?

I think we find ourselves in a situation here (as well as with Native Americans) where we can't change the past, so we can't totally right the wrong.  All we can do is go forward.  Perhaps to help those who have been dealt with unfairly in some way receive a form of compensation to help them overcome whatever adversity they personally have faced, but at some point people need to put their pasts behind them and move forward.

I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I do believe that if a person keeps focussing on how bad life has been to them, they are just contributing to their own downfall.  For example, I was raised in some very unpleasant circumstances.  I can choose to focus on how difficult my childhood was and allow it to get in the way of my living my life today, or I can forget about it and do the best I can with what I have today.  Another example of this is I think someone can cry their entire life about how their parents couldn't or wouldn't pay for their college education so they have a lesser paying job than someone else or they can work on their own to find a way to get that college education and move on.  This person may never achieve the same things a Harvard University Graduate might or at least not as easily, but they will get much more out of life by trying to live it the best way they can than they will by just always focussing on how life has been unfair to them.

I mention all of this simply because as you say, we are not likely to ever give Hawaii back to the natives so it seems best to determine what other than that can and should be done, do it,and then move on.

Imperial US Sovereignty Hawaiian Politics

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I don't mean this to sound harsh, but I do believe that if a person keeps focussing on how bad life has been to them, they are just contributing to their own downfall.  For example, I was raised in some very unpleasant circumstances.  I can choose to focus on how difficult my childhood was and allow it to get in the way of my living my life today, or I can forget about it and do the best I can with what I have today.  Another example of this is I think someone can cry their entire life about how their parents couldn't or wouldn't pay for their college education so they have a lesser paying job than someone else or they can work on their own to find a way to get that college education and move on.  This person may never achieve the same things a Harvard University Graduate might or at least not as easily, but they will get much more out of life by trying to live it the best way they can than they will by just always focussing on how life has been unfair to them. I mention all of this simply because as you say, we are not likely to ever give Hawaii back to the natives so it seems best to determine what other than that can and should be done, do it,and then move on.

Sorry but I totally disagree with you. First of all, you're right about focusing too much in how bad life has been for them but this lack a lot of empathy in my point of view. Its easy to say it when you're not a Native American or a minority in your country and even though you may have experience bad things in your life not everybody had experience the same things and handle it in the same way. We should be empathetic about other's people situations...this is like the example of the Jews and those who survived the Holocaust...they're constantly talking about it because was part of their ancestors and is part of their lives, is not in the past and there should not move on until every single person in this world know that what was done was wrong and inhuman. This is the same thing. The Native Americans complaint and focus on these things because they have seen it going on with their ancestors and they still dealing with the consequences of abandonment and discrimination. What do you expect them to do?.
The 'move on' will only reach when people realizes the seriousness of these issues and stop asking them to move forward or move on and when they realize that is easy to speak from the other side, the same pain doesn't feel the same way with all people...

Politics - Hawai'ian Sovereignty and U.S. Imperial History & Civil Business Politics

Well on this one LDS we will just have to disagree.  I do not believe it does them any good generations later to be still saying this is why they can't be successful in life.  I think it just plays into the hands of those who don't want them to be successful.  I think it is something entirely different to identify things that can be changed and then change those, but what good does it do to focus on how wronged you have been if it is something that cannot be fixed.

By the way, I have suffered a lot of personal adversity and not all members of my family have handled it the same way.  I think I am better off because I have chosen to put it behind me.  That is not the same as allowing people to continue to abuse you.

Let me use the issue of race as an example.  I think less is served by a member of the black community complaining that they can't get ahead because their ancestors were slaves than by identifying where their is racisim and work to end that.  The fact that their ancestors were slaves is not why they can't get ahead, but racism that still exists today very well may be.  In this situation, I think they should fight to rid the world of racism, but at the same time do what they must to rise above it rather than just sit at home complaining about how life isn't fair.  That is what I mean.  

I am not saying that it is o.k. what has been done or how people have been treated, but I think we need to stop using excuses for failure and do whatever we need to personally get beyond it.

Most Jewish people did not let the Holocaust prevent them from becoming successful in today's society.  They don't forget what was done, and they shouldn't.  They don't let us forget, and they shouldn't, but they don't allow it to prevent them from being as successful today as they can be.

My son is always complaining about how certain things aren't fair.  I always tell him life isn't fair, but you have to play the cards you are dealt.  That is all I mean.  

So, when I sound harsh, I am sorry, but all I am asking is for constructive suggestions.  No one is going to give the native Hawaiians Hawaii back.  So, I am just asking what realistic constructive solution can be offered.

I will close by saying though you are probably right, I don't have a lot of empathy for this situation.  I just have always been one to believe that we need to work towards changing what we can change and accept what we can't change.  One of my favorite sayings is that we have to play the cards we are dealt.  (You may have already noticed I say it alot)  I wish I were a better person.  Maybe the longer I participate in this forum the better I will become.  I like to think, at least, that I have an open mind.  Open means I can change my view when I see an error in my thinking.

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LDS_Forever said

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Maybe you all that live in the United States can answer me this question better since I have never seen a 'native north american' before. How the US and the people in general treat them? isn't me or they see them as 'less' just because they don't live like the majority of the population?

This depends on where you live, in what part of the country.  In some places, they are just part of the community like everyone else; in others they are discriminated against and persecuted.  Much like the blacks were, and in some parts of the country, still are.

Tenaheff said

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I think we find ourselves in a situation here (as well as with Native Americans) where we can't change the past, so we can't totally right the wrong.  All we can do is go forward.  Perhaps to help those who have been dealt with unfairly in some way receive a form of compensation to help them overcome whatever adversity they personally have faced, but at some point people need to put their pasts behind them and move forward.

So ... if another country invaded us out of nowhere, forced our government to disband, confiscated all property, forced us all to live under completely different laws, required us to pledge allegiance to the thieves and become citizens of their country, and executed anyone who disagreed or tried to rebel ....  you would be okay with that? just being compensated for a percentage of your personal property?  pennies on the dollar?

I do agree that there doesn't seem much that can be done to right this wrong that happened a hundred years ago.  But in the grand scheme of things, 100 years isn't all that far back in history.

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I do not believe it does them any good generations later to be still saying this is why they can't be successful in life.  I think it just plays into the hands of those who don't want them to be successful.  I think it is something entirely different to identify things that can be changed and then change those, but what good does it do to focus on how wronged you have been if it is something that cannot be fixed. The fact that their ancestors were slaves is not why they can't get ahead, but racism that still exists today very well may be.  In this situation, I think they should fight to rid the world of racism, but at the same time do what they must to rise above it rather than just sit at home complaining about how life isn't fair.

 
I don't recall the Hawai'ians complaining about not being successful in life.  They *are* trying to fight for their rights; they *are* trying to do something about it.

What do I think should be done? In a perfect world, and in my opinion I think the U.S. Government should back out gracefully -- arrange a deal to keep their military bases and lease the land from the Hawai'ian government - or keep the military presence there in exchange for protection from other possible invaders.  I think the Hawai'ians should have the right of self-determination.  I think they should regain *control* of their land -- all of it.  And let them determine how it happens, and that each person living there now, whether Hawai'ian or not, is dealt with as fairly as possible, based upon records of descendancy and legitimate property claims.

Since it's not a perfect world, and no one would listen to me anyway, I don't see this happening.  But throwing a few dollars at the Natives to compensate for what they've lost is absurd.  The same with Native Americans and the Japanese interred during WWII and the descendants of slaves and the Holocaust survivors.  There is no compensating for what they endured and what they lost.

I'm not saying they should sit on their butts and whine about how unfair it was for the rest of their lives.  But I don't believe they should just forget about it, either.  My point in posting this topic was not to determine a solution here on this forum (that's impossible!), but to bring up a subject for discussion that a lot of people don't know about.  Most of us are just way too comfortable in our own lives to worry about what's happening in the world.

I didn't intend for this to be a contentious topic, and if I seemed combative, I apologize.  

Roz

Imperial US Sovereignty Hawaiian Politics

I am just jumping in here to say that the whole thing is about how people view time. If a crime happened yesterday is it more serious that a crime that happened 100 years ago? I believe I mentioned this earlier. However what is the 'limit' we give before we say, 'too late'? 1 year, 2 years, 50 years? Historic crimes seem to be more acceptable, especially if they happen to a population as a whole. Okay, jumping back out.

Politics - Hawai'ian Sovereignty and U.S. Imperial

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So ... if another country invaded us out of nowhere, forced our government to disband, confiscated all property, forced us all to live under completely different laws, required us to pledge allegiance to the thieves and become citizens of their country, and executed anyone who disagreed or tried to rebel ....  you would be okay with that? just being compensated for a percentage of your personal property?  pennies on the dollar?

Yes, I am if it hasn't been resolved in over 100 years and if I am given the same rights in that society as anyone else living there is.  

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What do I think should be done? In a perfect world, and in my opinion I think the U.S. Government should back out gracefully -- arrange a deal to keep their military bases and lease the land from the Hawai'ian government - or keep the military presence there in exchange for protection from other possible invaders.  I think the Hawai'ians should have the right of self-determination.  I think they should regain *control* of their land -- all of it.  And let them determine how it happens, and that each person living there now, whether Hawai'ian or not, is dealt with as fairly as possible, based upon records of descendancy and legitimate property claims.

What about all the people who live in Hawaii now and have for several generations, but can't trace their roots to the Natives.  Do they have no say in what happens?  Do you suggest it is o.k. to treat them unfairly now to right an unjustice done 100+ years ago?  If the majority of current Hawaiian citizens want to leave the US, then I might have a different opinion than the one I currently hold.

Farseer, I, too, do not wish to be combative, but I don't see the logic in what you are suggesting.  Following your logic, then, the US government needs to leave the entire US not just Hawaii because all of this country belongs to the Native American Indian if you go back far enough.  So should we just disband the entire country?

I am not saying you said they were complaining about getting ahead, I simply was going the next step in my argument.  The point I was trying to make is that if their isn't a realistic solution, what is the next logical thing someone can do.  In that case, I would think it would be to make the most of the situation in which you find yourself.  

I apologize to you, if I offended you.  We just don't agree on this issue.  

Politics Hawai'ian Sovereignty U.S. Imperial - Page 3

Tena, well yes we don't agree in this issue . I think your opinion on this matter are based on your personal experiences and of course, your own logic but I want to remind you like I did before that you're not a Native American, African-American or any other minority that has suffered pain, abuse and mistreatment for hundreds of years...now you may say I don't need to be one in order to be empathetic and you're right! but when your own ancestors are the ones who suffered grief and pain and when you are the one who is suffering the consequences of past mistakes...you will not live in peace, you cannot 'move on'. Like Farseer say, I dont think Native Americans complain about how unfair life is for them, I actually think they're extremely quiet and they could sue the whole United States of America if they want to!. I perfectly agree with you about 'living in the past', I know there is no solution for this problem that have occured so many years ago but at the same time I don't see the US government making any serious effort to plan in how to 'compensate' this people.
By the other hand, I totally disagree with your thinking about the example of African Americans and the slavery issue (maybe you would like to add a thread about it and we can discuss it more). My point is when it doesn't happen directly to you per say is very easy to say things like 'they should move on' and what not but because it doesn't affect you directly, is easier to make statements like that one....I believe Empathy is not to pat the back of somebody who suffer and say 'You know? I know how you feel (when you don't)' or 'I'm sorry what you suffered, but you need to move on'....Empathy in my point of view is trying to walk in the mocassines of that person and try...just try...to see how it feels and how we do that? by reading about history, not allowing the mistakes of the past to return and by not forgetting...and this last one can be achieved only when they speak about it, discuss about it, fight against it and demand their rights as more than fully citizens of the United States of America.

Politics Hawai'ian Sovereignty U.S. Imperial Politics Business Civil & History - Page 3

Believe it or not LDS, I agree with you 100%.  However, I am only a result of my experiences.  I cannot really understand what it is like to be black, or native american.  I hope you don't think I believe racism to be o.k.  I do not.  I think it should be fought and prevented in all cases.

I also don't believe we should ever forget what has been done in the past to hurt people.  If we forget, then we are in very grave danger of allowing it to be repeated.  I just am a solutions based person.  It is what I do for a living as well.  I know it comes across sometimes as not caring.  That isn't really true, I care, but I always want to know what I can do to make it better, not to just say I am sorry this has happened to you.  That is why I never know what to say to someone who has lost a loved one.  I know I can't make it better so I don't know what to say to them.  

Well, I am human and so I am not perfect.