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Association of Righteousness with Color - Page 2

The Church officially or people in the Church? I have never read this in any official capacity and I have never been taught it. I have never even given it any thought before yesterday.

I am not suggesting it. I am just saying, that to my knowledge we don't know one way or the other if it has any significance. So, I am saying it could be that whites were more valiant and it could be that whites were less valiant. I have not seen any "official" church teaching on this matter.

This may be true but not every word uttered by Brigham Young was a sermon either. So if held the same prejudices other men of his day did, it doesn't mean he preached them as gospel.

My understanding of the change from white to pure in the BOM was to make it more accurately reflect the meaning. That is the explanation of which I am referring.

LDS, I agree that all past statements of prejudice are hurtful and do adversely affect people, I was just saying that I think it not unreasonable that Brigham Young would have the normal prejudices of his day. Yes, we expect more from him than from most men, but he was still nothing more than a mere mortal on earth. Yes, he represented the Lord in regards to Church affairs, but that is basically all a prophet is. He is the Lord's mouthpiece for the Church, but he is not a perfect man. Only the Savior was that.

This is all in my opinion only. I will be interested to see what your research reveals.

Color Righteousness Association

Nh, thank you so much for taking the time of sharing your opinions and researching about it Thanks also for those wonderful quotes you added that brought some more light in this whole discussions.

[quote]I personally don't think the amount of melanin pigment in the skin mattered in the pre-existence and I don't think it will matter after we die. I think it is just an earthly condition, an additional tool given to provide the thorns and stickers we must endure and overcome. [/quote]

This is exactly how I feel but it seems like the Church in the past (I don't know about it now) doesn't feel the same way. Maybe I should make a research about what's the position of the Church now although I would personally be very surprised that we still believing this because of obvious discrimination issues that the world will blame us to and they would be right about it if they do.

[quote] Was Christ "white"? I don't think so. Was Nephi white? I am caucasian but I look down at my skin and it is very tan from working in my garden. I imagine those of you who spend time at the beach or where it is more sunny year round, are much darker than me who works in a computer room all day, get in my car and go from car to my house.  [/quote]

I agree with you on this one too! Although it would be extremely hard to find any quotes about this from modern LDS prophets, I do think the Church thinks that Christ was white, of course there is no need to 'preach' it, for what reason anyway?. Personally it doesn't matter to me, what it matters is that He gave his life for me whether he was white, black, syrian or chinese, it doesn't change what he has done for me, that's why it is hard to accept the fact that the Church once said that the race we are born into this world has to do with our obedience and righteousness in the Pre-existence life.


[quote] Bruce T. Harper wrote about the "white and delightsome" change to pure in the Oct. Ensign, 1981, that it was Joseph Smith, Jr intention that the text be changed to "pure" instead of "white."

"...In order to present the word of God as accurately as possible, a number of corrections have been made in the text itself, primarily in the Book of Mormon. Most students of latter-day scriptures are aware that from the very first printing typographical errors have crept into the Book of Mormon.[/quote]

Yes there were plenty of them although personally I don't see the word 'white' to 'pure' as a typographical error but I could be mistaken. But it is interesting to notice that the early editions of the Book of Mormon containing the word 'white' instead of 'pure' seem related to what the old Prophets thought about 'blacks' back then. (see quotes I put on my first thread)  I don't think it is just coincidence.


Tena said:

[quote] The Church officially or people in the Church?  I have never read this in any official capacity and I have never been taught it.  I have never even given it any thought before yesterday. [/quote]

I just can talk by what our Prophets have said in the past.  It's obvious that this is not an issue anymore in the Church or at least we don't talk about it after 1978 when the members of the African race where allowed to hold the Priesthood.  I don't even think we will hear anything like that anymore, it will give us a lot of trouble in the world, they will accusse us of discrimination, they still doing it, can you imagine if we openly suggested that again nowdays?. It would be catrastrofic for the Church.

[quote]I was just saying that I think it not unreasonable that Brigham Young would have the normal prejudices of his day.  Yes, we expect more from him than from most men, but he was still nothing more than a mere mortal on earth.  [/quote]

Thanks for that reminder Tena Really, I know they were men and some of them have the prejudices of their days...I don't know if that is 'normal' but I do know they pretty much thought on issues in another light than we see it now. It's just very difficult to read those words and then think that those Prophets were also inspired from God, now, don't take me wrong, I'm a sinner and I am full of faults, I'm nobody to judge anybody in any way, I'm just trying to understand why certain things are the way they are. I just wish more light on these issues can be given. Maybe for some of you who are caucasians, it may seem not like a big deal but for people like me who are hispanic or from other races, is an issue itself. Most of the members here in Trinidad are black and I know they don't know about this issues and I personally don't bring them to them either because it may affect their testimonies about the Gospel because some of them are the only members of their family. That's why this board is the only place I can openly talk about this.

Thanks again for the replies so far guys! ;D

Association of Righteousness with Color Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]Maybe for some of you who are caucasians, it may seem not like a big deal but for people like me who are hispanic or from other races, is an issue itself. [/quote]

If it is an issue that bothers or hinders the advancement of any brother or sister in this Church we should all consider it a "big deal."  I think it would probably bother me too if I were not caucasion.  It is hard to know for sure, since we never know how we will react until we are faced with a situation, but I think I can see how it would bother me.

Trouble is I don't see how the Church is ever going to address this issue.  One, I think it is a very volatile topic and one that could really open us up for further criticism as LDS indicates in her post.  Two, I am not sure we have a good answer to give.

I personally do not believe that someone of color was less valiant than I was in the pre-existance.  That doesn't make it untrue, but I don't happen to believe it personally.  Since, I don't think the Church holds that out as doctrine, I am not required to believe it in order to be a good member of the Church.

[quote]1. One of the Prophets of our dispensation taught that the race and nation in which we are born into this world is a direct result of our pre-existence life. What are your thoughts about it?.
We know God is no respecter of persons. Bruce R. Mc Conkie in Mormom Doctrine said "Caste systems have their root and origin in the gospet itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord....All this is not to say  that any race, creed, or caste should be denied any inalienable rights. But it is to say that Deity in his infinite wisdom, to carry out his inscrutable purposes, has a caste system of his own, a system of segregation of races and peoples. The justice of such a system is evident when life is considered in its true eternal Perspective. It is only by a knowledge of pre-existence that it can be known why some persons are born in one race or caste and some in another." [/quote]

LDS, your opening quote (see above) suggests to me that this doesn't necessarily mean less valiant, just that depending upon what we did in the pre-existance determines our race here.  Could be as simple as some of us need refining in certain areas and others of us need it somewhere else.  Perhaps the race into which we are born helps ensure certain experiences that will help to shape us into the ultimate person Heavenly Father wants for us to become.  He knows what we need to help "perfect" us based upon the kind of spirit person we were.  

I think the last line of that quote is the truth.  We will probably never fully understand the reasons for different races and our place within them while on this side of the veil.

Page 2 Color Righteousness Association

Here is something to consider...

First of all how did the different races come about?

We know of Cain, Babel, and the Lamanites, they were direct curses for doing something wrong. Oft times in the Old Testament the Lord would say 'til the fourth generation' meaning that the curse (any curse really) would ride with these people for four generations because it is likely the children and grand children would partake of the original sin that caused the curse in the first place.

So what is my point? Well if we are saying that our skin color is in direct relation to our pre-mortal life then we are also saying that these cursings (Cain, Babel, etc.) were all in preparation for the spirit children to inherit? Thus as it was said earlier... another tool, another way to be tested? However, I do not know if it is as simple as that since only those who were born to certain tribes were Levites, etc. It is obvious from the scriptures that what 'we get here' is in direct justification with what we either agreed to before we came or that was pronounced upon us. Hence certain men are called as Prophets. Paul (once Saul) is an excellent example of that, so was Alma. they were enemies, yet choosen from the foundation of the earth. It seems to be going off topic? Not really, I am saying that race may indeed play a 'part' just like a 'woman' has a part to play and a 'man' the same.

Color Righteousness Association

Thanks for your reply Tena and JB. It seems like I what I get from most posts is that the Church will not address this issue for obvious reasons and also that we will not know really how God's mind think until we pass the other side of the veil.
I'm open to more thoughts, research and opinions about this topic. Thanks again!

Association of Righteousness with Color

I would like to chime in hear with my $0.02.  

In regard to the curses, the teaching that some of us sit the fence in the pre-mortal life is baseless.  It was an assumption made by Parley Pratt (I think) but was shot down by Brigham Young.  Pratt used reason, not revelation to explain it because there is no revelation on it.

Each of us who came down has trials to endure, so one of them is proving ourselves in all things.  If Black, then your obstacle is to prove that the rumors of the world will not detract from your spirit born testimony.  So what if Blacks did not receive the priesthood, or were slaves, or had hard lived, or any other things?
It is a horrid thing to endure, but the Savior endured much more.  

We must bear our crosses regardless the source our afflictions come from.  The Lord allowed Job to suffer.  In the end the lord blessed him bountifully.  He never will forget his suffering, but will be more thankful for his blessings.

Lamanites cursed!  How!  I can see it in the earlier times, but not know.  The Lamanites are a mixture of the seeds of all of Lehi' children.  If you read the BoM carefully, you will notice that overtime the children of Nephi and Laman intermarried.  Don't forget the 200 years where there was no Ites in the land at all but only followers of Christ.  
The Lamanites of that period consciously made a decision to be called by that name.  It had little to do with physical lineage at that time.  No records were kept of such.  All of the righteous Lamanites did not become white at one time.  Some remained dark and were still righteous.

As far as change of the white to pure.  Any matter of things could have been the case.  Being sensitive about it doesn't make it go away.  We have to face that the brethren have said things that are politically incorrect and taught things that aren't doctrinal.  Doctrine is that which is uttered by the First Presidency and that which is accepted by vote in conference.  I do mean vote.  We get to vote not just sustain a doctrine as a church.  We are never forced to obey God.  He gives us option even in the temple.

There is more but I want to see the response to this much

Association Righteousness Color - Page 2

What a can of worms.

[quote]Lastly, I do wonder about the substitution for the word 'white', but I have not dived into much of it yet. I am sure Nighthawk will say this is the Church's way of making itself look good to Babylon? All in my opinion.[/quote]
Nope.  I don't think that way.  I agree with the other posts here that in the scriptures, pure and white can be interchangeable.  I have also heard that Joseph Smith wanted the same change made.  I don't believe that the Book of Mormon was a perfect translation, as Joseph Smith said that if there were errors, they were the errors of men, and we know that there were a whole lot of minor errors.

I think that most of the questions have been addressed to a large extent.  I was raised within the culture such that I had always assumed that the people of black, African descent were "fence sitters."  Now, I hold no opinion on that subject.  I understand that the Lord had some reason to restrict the Priesthood, but I don't know what that reason is, and I don't think it affects me.

What I have thought about, a little bit, is the different blessings that are attached to different lineages.  We know, for example, that the Messiah was to come through the lineage of Judah, so that Judah contains the royal lineage.  Also, that the Priesthood is promised to Levi.  The greatest blessings, as far as most of us are concerned, is that Ephraim is preeminent today, in preparing for the return of the Saviour.  I am not sure what role Ephraim will play after the return.

I have read several discussions about the proclamation in 1978 regarding the Priesthood.  Amazingly, I don't take a side on it.  There is a lot of evidence for both sides of the argument, that President Kimball did or did not receive revelation on the subject, that he acted precipitously, or that the Lord commanded him to do what he did.  In general, I think that the Lord at least allowed it to happen, for His purposes, without severe consequences for us.  However, I know several people who are convinced that the Church has wholly lost the Priesthood because of 1978, and President Young's statement that is previously recorded here.

I like Granny's idea that different races/lineages come from different mothers in the Celestial realm.

I don't believe that "white" people were more valiant in the pre-mortal existence.  It is possible that people who have been born in the lineage of Ephraim and other Israelite lines developed spiritual power and/or abilities that indicated they should be within those lines.  I am sure, however, that we experienced different levels and degrees of valiance, faith, and ability, which is witnessed in the genius of such people as Mozart, Rembrandt, and Joseph Smith.

[quote]Just my opinion, I am not a scientist. I personally don't think the amount of melanin pigment in the skin mattered in the pre-existence and I don't think it will matter after we die. I think it is just an earthly condition, an additional tool given to provide the thorns and stickers we must endure and overcome. Frankly, I hope that in the eternities, I won't be "white"...an albino without any melanin in my skin.
.....
Was Christ "white"? I don't think so. Was Nephi white?[/quote]
I think the amount of melanin in our skin is mostly an identification characteristic, because race apparently does have some eternal significance.

I don't think Christ was "white" in the form of caucasian.  I think he was olive-skinned, probably with black, curly or kinky hair.  However, we know that NOW he is "white" in the meaning of glowing with a white light beyond anything that mortals have ever experienced.  All of the latter-day experiences with resurrected beings have commented on this fact, that they are extremely white.  I doubt it is anything like albinoism, as it is far beyond the telestial experiences and limitations that we all know so well.

To summarize.  I don't know.  I think that race is probably relative to something in our pre-mortal existence, but I don't know what.  But it is a great subject for discussion

NightHawk

Association Righteousness Color Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

[quote]I don't believe that the Book of Mormon was a perfect translation, as Joseph Smith said that if there were errors, they were the errors of men, and we know that there were a whole lot of minor errors.[/quote]

We often lose sight of this fact.  It may be the most correct book on the face of the earth as we have been taught, but even that doesn't make it perfect!

I must say, I think I agree with just about everything Nighthawk wrote.  I don't know what the fence sitters comment meant, but everything else seems to make sense.  Especially that we developed different skills and personality's in the pre-existance.  Different doesn't mean better or worse, just not the same.  These differences probably would have an impact or bearing upon who we develop to be as people here on earth and this would then make sense that even our very race could be somewhat determined by these differences.

Nighthawk, for me, you seem to have answered this question very well and quite thoroughly.  Thanks.