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I have just skimmed through your Post and - Page 3 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 24th Aug, 2008 - 11:20am
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Post Date: 3rd May, 2008 - 10:33am / Post ID: #
Tithes - Gross or Net - Page 3
Is net over all the income you earn? I pay over all the income I get because it is still what the LORD gives to you, when you pay after tax it is not what the LORD gives you. I believe that if you pay tithe before tax the LORD will open more windows of heaven upon you.
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Net Gross Tithes
Although I understand what you are saying we are asked to pay on our increase. It is personal to everyone, however if you are running a business then tax is not part of an increase. If you are making a salary you might try to be objectionable towards it. My point is that Tithing has been defined as to be calculated on increase and not "...because it is still what the LORD gives to you" which would encompass a lot more than an increase.
Post Date: 5th May, 2008 - 3:15am / Post ID: #
Tithes - Gross or Net Studies Doctrine Mormon
Why argue this topic. I have never been told that it is anything less 10 % of your personal growth. In the last few decades, this has been based more on your w2 then on your actual gains. My feeling is if you feel it is the net then make sure you pay that portion every week. the gross then pay the gross. The biggest issue in this topic is the same thing that the argument of the sadducees and the pharisees over various topics. What you need to remember is that you are the one who will be accountable to the lord. If you question this type of topic then you need to pray, search the scriptures and then ask your bishop for help.
Page 3 Net Gross Tithes
| QUOTE |
| I have never been told that it is anything less 10 % of your personal growth. |
There is a good talk on this and here is a piece from it:
| QUOTE |
| The amount of tithing we pay is the most perfect and equitable arrangement of which I know. It is one-tenth of our increase. |
I posted the whole talk since it doesn't link properly here.
| QUOTE |
Earl C. Tingey, “The Law of Tithing,” Ensign, May 2002, 10 The Lord has established the law of tithing as the law of revenue of His Church. … It is also a law by which we show our loyalty to the Lord. Image Last Christmas I received a special gift from my mother. She had carefully kept in her possession over these many years a little book I first received from my parents in 1944, when I was 10 years of age. This is the book. It is a journal in which I was taught to record on a weekly basis my income and expenses. As an example, my entry for the week of 29 July 1944 records that I started the week with $24.05 on hand and earned $7.00 working on our family farm. For expenses, I spent 5 cents for candy, $3.45 for a purchase, 20 cents for a movie, and $2.37 for personal clothing. I also invested $20.00 in a war savings bond and paid 70 cents tithing. I ended the week with $4.28 on hand. I remember questioning my father whether my wage of 25 cents an hour might be increased. But remembering that a movie was 20 cents and candy cost only 5 cents, I now realize I was probably overpaid. As I looked through this journal of more than 50 years ago, I noted that every week during the years 1944 and 1945, I paid tithing of 10 percent of my income for that week. In December 1944 I recorded that I had paid $12.35 in tithing that year—a full tithing. This is where and how I learned to pay tithing. My wife and I taught our children the importance of setting aside tithing each week as they received an allowance or earned money babysitting or doing special jobs. They put the tithing in a little box. On fast Sunday they gave the tithing to the bishop. They also learned the value of money by saving a goodly portion of the balance of their income for a future mission and education. Our grandchildren are now following a similar pattern. Let us teach this principle to our children and be sure they see us paying tithing. President Joseph F. Smith said, “Our children, as soon as they become old enough to earn means, should be taught to pay their tithing, that their names may be written in the book of the law of the Lord.” 1 In my day, in Primary, we learned this little poem: What is tithing? I will tell you every time. Ten cents from a dollar And a penny from a dime. The doctrine of paying tithing is woven like a tapestry throughout the scriptures. Abraham paid tithing to Melchizedek. 2 The children of Israel were taught to bring their tithes to the Lord. 3 Probably the most quoted scripture on the subject of tithing in the Old Testament is found in Malachi: “Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. “Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.” 4 The amount of tithing we pay is the most perfect and equitable arrangement of which I know. It is one-tenth of our increase. All, from the poorest to the richest, pay the same percentage. Christ taught that principle in the story of the widow’s mite: “And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. “And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. “And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: “For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.” 5 A mite is a very small coin. It was the smallest bronze coin used by the Jews. It was one-sixty-fourth of a Roman silver penny. In this dispensation, the Lord has established the law of tithing as the law of revenue of His Church. Without it, we could not carry out the eternal purposes of the Lord. It is also a law by which we show our loyalty to the Lord and prove ourselves worthy for privileges, ordinances, and blessings. I was recently in Independence, Missouri, and felt a need to drive an hour north to Far West. The Latter-day Saints settled Far West in 1836 as a place of refuge from persecution. Far West became the county seat, with an estimated 3,000 to 5,000 inhabitants. It was the headquarters of the Church for a season. My own ancestors lived there. As I arrived at Far West and looked about, all I could see was rolling farmlands. There was no city, no roads or buildings. There was only a peaceful, grassy temple site containing four cornerstones, surrounded by a modest fence. In 1838 the Saints were driven from Far West. Joseph Smith and others were arrested and taken to the nearby Liberty Jail. There they languished under the most horrible conditions imaginable for six months. My own ancestors suffered terribly in Far West and almost lost their lives. As I stood in Far West and visualized what it once was, I opened my scriptures and read section 119 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This revelation was given through the Prophet Joseph Smith at Far West on 8 July 1838, in the midst of these persecutions: “And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people. “And after that, those who have thus been tithed shall pay one-tenth of all their interest annually; and this shall be a standing law unto them forever, for my holy priesthood, saith the Lord.” 6 I thought to myself that the law of tithing could not have been received by the members of the Church at a less opportune time than then. But they received it, and the members commenced living this new law at a time when they were losing their possessions and, in some cases, their lives. As I visited Far West, I gained a spiritual testimony of the law of tithing that was stronger and deeper than I had ever before felt. I would like to offer a word of counsel to the many thousands of members joining the Church today as a result of the diligent efforts of our missionaries. Exercise your faith. Pay your tithing. This law may be different from that to which you were accustomed prior to your baptism. But nothing you do as a new convert will more completely prepare you to enjoy the wonderful blessings that await you—even temple blessings—than paying your tithing. Now, a brief word of counsel to missionaries. Teach tithing to your investigators in such a way that they will gain a testimony of this wonderful principle of the gospel. Joseph F. Smith’s mother was known as “Widow Smith.” She was the widow of Hyrum Smith, who was martyred with the Prophet Joseph. She once rebuked the tithing clerk who stated that because of her poverty, she should not have to pay her tithing. She said: “ ‘Would you deny me a blessing? If I did not pay my tithing, I should expect the Lord to withhold his blessings from me. I pay my tithing, not only because it is a law of God, but because I expect a blessing by doing it. By keeping this and other laws, I expect to prosper, and to be able to provide for my family.’ ” 7 Did she prosper? Her son and grandson became presidents of the Church, and her descendants today include a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and many notable Church leaders. Speaking of his mother, Joseph F. Smith once said she paid “tithes of her sheep and cattle, the tenth pound of her butter, her tenth chicken, the tenth of her eggs, the tenth pig, the tenth calf, the tenth colt—a tenth of everything she raised.” 8 I was once teaching the law of tithing to a group of Church leaders in Africa. One brother said, “Elder Tingey, how can I pay tithing when I have no income?” I inquired and determined that he had a large family of seven or eight children and was unemployed. I asked how he fed his family. He said he had a small garden and raised geese. I asked, “What do the geese do?” He replied, “They lay eggs.” I responded, “What if one morning you discovered 10 geese eggs in the nests of your geese?” A light flickered on in his soul. “I could take one egg and give it to my branch president,” he answered. He understood, and he could become a full-tithe payer. As we pay and teach our children to pay tithing, we develop a family that is deeply rooted in making and keeping temple covenants. The most glorious of all blessings we receive in this life and in the eternities are blessings that come from knowing that our families are sealed together for all eternity. Today some may find that they are denying themselves these privileges by their failure to pay tithing. To those who find themselves in this situation, my counsel is to exercise your faith, prove the Lord herewith, and pay your tithing. A special peace that will surpass all understanding will come to you and your family as you pay a full tithing. You will find that all fears concerning finances and care of family will diminish. You will come to know that your Heavenly Father loves you. I am grateful that my parents taught me to pay tithing. I bear my humble testimony that paying tithing is a true principle of the gospel of Jesus Christ. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen. |
Edited: McKay on 6th May, 2008 - 1:37amPost Date: 7th May, 2008 - 9:54pm / Post ID: #
Net Gross Tithes
Unfortunately the principle of letting people govern themselves gives some of them an out to rationalize, so this principle helps the righteous but further condemns the unrighteous. The law of tithing is one of the stricter gospel laws, with not a lot left up to interpretation. There's some wiggle room, but each person knows if they're approaching it in an honest manner. Tithing isn't like looking for tax loopholes. You should be paying all that the Lord requires. Also, an honest tithe payer tends to make a generous fast offering as well. A bishop once told us that the law of tithing isn't about the money, but it's about faith. If your faith is to pay 9.5% tithing, then that isn't adequate faith. If you're not sure if you're paying enough tithing or not, then pay 11% just to be sure. There's no commandment that says you shouldn't pay more than 10%.
Tithes - Gross or Net
| QUOTE (Interstellar) |
| f you're not sure if you're paying enough tithing or not, then pay 11% just to be sure. There's no commandment that says you shouldn't pay more than 10%. |
In my opinion, that advice pushes the person into further rationalization. 11% of what amount? If they are already cutting back or rationalizing what they should pay then paying 11% of the wrong figure does not make much sense. For instance. If you are supposed to pay 10% of $100, but you rationalize your tithing to be 11% of $70 then it does not work.
Post Date: 24th Aug, 2008 - 5:15am / Post ID: #
Tithes Gross Net - Page 3
I thought this was a fantastic thread topic! I spoke to a bishop once who taught tithing was paid by Gross. This was taught over the pulpit. He was surprised when I invited him to read the Bishops hand book and he saw that it did not say Gross or Net. The churches official stance for tithing is not Gross or Net, which makes topics like this come up.
| QUOTE |
| As a friend said to me once - when he was asked "Do we pay on gross or net?", reply "Do you want gross blessings or net blessing!" |
LOL, cute, I like this response!
| QUOTE |
| Tithing means one-tenth of a person's income, interest, or increase. The merchant should pay tithing upon the net income of his business, the farmer upon the net income of his farming operations; the wage earner or salaried man upon the wage or salary earned by him. Out of the remaining nine-tenths he pays his current expenses, taxes, savings, etc. To deduct living costs, taxes and similar expenses from the income and pay tithing upon the remainder DOES NOT comform to the Lord's commandment...." |
by Elder John A. Widtosoe
There is a problem with this as you will notice that the merchant get clothes and goods from his merchandise, farmer is getting his food, the business writes off everything before net, all this before paying tithing because it is all written off as a loss of revenue or cost of business. Then the salaried worker must pay tithing before covering any of these expenses. This leads to the questions asked in the first post, C) & D).
In business I write off clothes, cars, food, haircuts, entertainment and more as a business expense. All this before paying tithing or taxes. From a business stand point Gross does not make any sense as pointed out by Widtosoe above.
As BJ quoted, tithing should be paid on our interest according to D&C. However, if we all paid on our interest, very few would pay anything and those that did would pay very little at first but would become very rich and pay much more later.
Rather than asking the question, pay on our gross or net for example, if we study the law of tithing, (seems so basic, why study it?), we will begin to see that we are supposed to pay on our "interest", "surplus" and "increase". Notice how these are all investing terms.
I guarantee if you learn how to pay tithing on your interest, surplus and increase you will receive a financial blessing from heaven so great there will not be room enough to receive it. (But don't worry, the government will know what to do with it...)
Applying the concept of "interest" to our discussion, if I have $10 invested and receive $1 from my interest, then I would pay 10 cents. That's a pretty good way to know that I am prospering. The more tithing I pay, the more prosperous I am! WAIT, I got that backwards, the more prosperous I am, the more tithing I pay! Makes me want to prosper so I can pay more! :-) Is the Lord trying to teach us how to increase our talents or bury them?
A question I have is, if a business were allowed to pay tithing, would they pay on gross, net or something else? If the business grossed $100k but had a Net of $10, how much would they pay?
Remember, in a business all expenses are written off to determine net. With natural people, we do not write off our cost of business/living expenses before paying tithing. (rent, food, gas, etc.) If we finish the year and have a personal net worth of $300 which is $200 less than last year, do we have an increase? Have we prospered? Can we have a personal gross worth? What would that be like?!?
Here is something more to chew on... How does this quote by Joseph Smith effect your answer to the above questions? Does it change them at all?
There is a problem with this as you will notice that the merchant get clothes and goods from his merchandise, farmer is getting his food, the business writes off everything before net, all this before paying tithing because it is all written off as a loss of revenue or cost of business. Then the salaried worker must pay tithing before covering any of these expenses. This leads to the questions asked in the first post, C) & D).
In business I write off clothes, cars, food, haircuts, entertainment and more as a business expense. All this before paying tithing or taxes. From a business stand point Gross does not make any sense as pointed out by Widtosoe above.
As BJ quoted, tithing should be paid on our interest according to D&C. However, if we all paid on our interest, very few would pay anything and those that did would pay very little at first but would become very rich and pay much more later.
Rather than asking the question, pay on our gross or net for example, if we study the law of tithing, (seems so basic, why study it?), we will begin to see that we are supposed to pay on our "interest", "surplus" and "increase". Notice how these are all investing terms.
I guarantee if you learn how to pay tithing on your interest, surplus and increase you will receive a financial blessing from heaven so great there will not be room enough to receive it. (But don't worry, the government will know what to do with it...)
Applying the concept of "interest" to our discussion, if I have $10 invested and receive $1 from my interest, then I would pay 10 cents. That's a pretty good way to know that I am prospering. The more tithing I pay, the more prosperous I am! WAIT, I got that backwards, the more prosperous I am, the more tithing I pay! Makes me want to prosper so I can pay more! :-) Is the Lord trying to teach us how to increase our talents or bury them?
A question I have is, if a business were allowed to pay tithing, would they pay on gross, net or something else? If the business grossed $100k but had a Net of $10, how much would they pay?
Remember, in a business all expenses are written off to determine net. With natural people, we do not write off our cost of business/living expenses before paying tithing. (rent, food, gas, etc.) If we finish the year and have a personal net worth of $300 which is $200 less than last year, do we have an increase? Have we prospered? Can we have a personal gross worth? What would that be like?!?
Here is something more to chew on... How does this quote by Joseph Smith effect your answer to the above questions? Does it change them at all?
| QUOTE |
| Covenant of Tithing    On the evening of the 29th of November, I united in prayer with Brother Oliver for the continuance of blessings. After giving thanks for the relief which the Lord had lately sent us by opening the hearts of the brethren from the east, to loan us $430; after commencing and rejoicing before the Lord on this occasion, we agreed to enter into the following covenant with the Lord, viz:   That if the Lord will prosper us in our business and open the way before us that we may obtain means to pay our debts, that we be not troubled nor brought into disrepute before the world, nor His people; after that, of all that He shall give unto us, we will give a tenth to be bestowed upon the poor in His Church, or as He shall command; and that we will be faithful over that which he has entrusted to our care, that we may obtain much; and that our children after us shall remember to observe this sacred and holy covenant; and that our children, and our children's children, may know of the same, we have subscribed our names with our own hands. (March 29, 1834.) DHC 2:174-175. (Signed) JOSEPH SMITH, JUN., OLIVER COWDERY. ToPJS Section Two 1834-37, p.70 |
Joseph Fielding Smith placed this passage under the title "Covenant of Tithing". I understand that we may well say he was giving to the poor, however this clearly is not a fast offering and it was given to the poor of the church "or as He (the Lord) shall command", which is currently how tithes are used. Notice that the covenant was made with a two sided agreement. If the Lord prospered them that they paid all their debts, then, after their debts were paid and they began to prosper above their debts, they would pay 1/10 to the Lord. Imagine, how much tithing would be paid if we only paid tithing after the Lord brought us out of debt? Are we as a people free from debt or not?
Based upon my above reasoning here are my answers to A-D
A: What are my costs of living and health which allowed me to spend my time selling the apple. I think I lost a lot of money and have a debt in my budget that needs to be paid back before paying tithing.
B: No increase was incurred so no tithing owed, and an additional 10 cent deficiency must be cured before paying tithing on my increase. Good thing this starts over every year...
C: The total increase you have for the year would be reduced by this amount because it was a loss in business increase. (I stole this answer completely, thanks...)
D: The cost of business must be calculated as a loss, not an increase. Unless you say I "increase my opportunity to do business!?!" Lol, not!
| QUOTE |
| Here's another question on the same general question: Do you consider TIME to be an increase to you? Is every minute of your life an increase? Do we consider every breath as a gift from God? Do we tithe our time? Should we? And if so, do we tithe Net (time awake) or tithe Gross (time alive)? |
On this concept, If we serve a 2 year mission out of every 20 years, do we then deduct our daily living expenses from our increase before paying tithing because we have already given the Lord a tithe of our "life on earth" and cost of living?
(I am not suggesting we be stingy, We receive blessings for generous offerings as well. I am saying that one of the major blessings of tithing is financial prosperity. This is the natural result of paying tithing on your interest, surplus and increase, but not a natural consequence of paying on your gross or net. And as God's laws are based on natural consequences with their blessings and curses, understanding the blessing will help us in understanding the law.)
Edited: Amonhi on 24th Aug, 2008 - 5:21amTithes Gross Net Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3
I have just skimmed through your Post and I believe we are thinking alike here. I am amazed how many people talk about Gross and Net hence I have started this Thread. Increase is the key word, yet is ignored and some set figure that is given each month to the individual is used. I feel this should be explained more, the Church might find more Members paying full tithes if they understand how to do it, but even leaders teach the wrong thing or their own precepts as per your example.
TOPIC: Tithes - Gross or Net