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Blacks & The Mormon Priesthood - Page 7

I am not going to take his word for it.

Where have Church leaders ever claimed President Young (or the theory) was wrong. His word that they have does not make it so. And it wouldn't be the first time that the Church did not correct someone who went out on a limb.

Further, isn't it convenient for the Church to let this lie, with this guy's view becoming the "official" view?

The Church says it didn't know. It didn't disavow any theory. THIS guy says it did. But without any support other than his word.

This cite states that Joseph Smith also accepted the curse of Ham theory:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham#...am_in_Mormonism

You take down Brother Brigham over this, and you might just be taking down Brother Joseph as well.

Other sources that state Joseph Smith believed the curse of Ham theory:

* Brigham Young (Apostle and 2nd President of the Church) (you discount his view)
* John Taylor (Apostle and 3rd President of the Church)
* George Q. Cannon (Apostle and Counselor in The First Presidency)
* Abraham O. Smoot (Apostle)
* Caleb A. Shreeve Sr. (Patriarch)
* Zebedee Coltrin (President of the Seventy)

And, from the Minutes of the August 22nd, 1895, meeting of The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:

https://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/q39.htm

From Brother Zebedee (who named him!?), he states that Joseph Smith told him as follows when specifically requested if they could ordain a black man:

And President Kimball, declaring the prohibition of the black man receiving the priesthood to be the will of God:

https://www.angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/q8.htm

Edited: tortdog on 30th Aug, 2007 - 2:31pm

Priesthood Mormon and Blacks

Tortdog:

He probably believed that, NEVERTHELESS did NOT stop him from giving the Priesthood to some Black early members of the Church. That's my issue with Young, he states the Prophet told him they are not supposed to have the Priesthood because they are "banned" from it, yet he gave Black men the Priesthood.

No, my issue with Young is not that. He and Joseph Smith could believe what they felt to, wrong and all. My issue is that he used that view from banning Black people from holding the Priesthood stating it was a revelation from God expressed by Joseph Smith, when Smith clearly gave the Priesthood to several Black men in the early days.

Tortdog, all the quotes you are presenting are "The Prophet told me so...". There is NO written evidence whatsoever that Joseph Smith ever taught or said those things (Banning Blacks from the Priesthood). Brother Zebedee's memory was not all that good because he said once that he ordained Elijah Abel but Joseph Smith revoked that ordination, which is not true.

With regards to Pres. Kimball's opinion I have nothing to say. It was his thoughts, Bruce R. Mc Conkie said several times (even in General Conference) that the Black Man will never have the Priesthood in this life. How wrong he was! (and he admitted)

Basically let me summarize a couple of points:

1. The Official Church position is "We do not know".

2. Leaders have stated their OPINION on the matter.

3. There is NOT written statement by Joseph Smith declaring an official revelation from God from banning Blacks from the Priesthood. We just have a bunch of guys who said "He told me so...". Basically, no proof.

4. So far, it seems more like a "tradition" (cannot find a better word for it ) that this ban was imposed since NO CHURCH LEADER OFFICIALLY have ever put the matter for the Saints to vote just as Pres. Kimball did when he received the Revelation in 1978.

Blacks & The Mormon Priesthood Studies Doctrine Mormon

Presidents of the Church have done more than you say. They have declared the curse of Cain (I called it curse of Ham as well) to be doctrine in the past.

And when Elder McConkie stated he was wrong, he did NOT disavow the curse of Cain doctrine. He said he was wrong that it would not be removed until the millenium. In that same speech, he reiterated that this curse came from God.

I do not find it credible that Joseph Smith must not have believed in the ban on the priesthood because he ordained one black man to the priesthood. (I know of only one confirmed.) Many things were done in the early Church that don't seem to always comport with teachings/doctrine. Mistakes are made.

To conclude that Joseph Smith never taught that black men should not receive the priesthood due to the curse of Cain requires:

* the First Presidency in 1947 to be wrong in stating that it has been Church doctrine since Joseph Smith, and

* all those witnesses, of whom include prophets, apostles and seventies, to be wrong.

In my view, that is akin to spitting in the wind. I just don't find it persuasive. And the funny thing is that I don't think it matters if Joseph Smith taught this as doctrine or not (or whether the Church held it as doctrine or not). Because even if it WAS doctrine, it's okay. Because it doesn't contradict anything in scripture or even how the Old Testament speaks of a God who discriminates based on race.

What do you say about my point that the Bible clearly defines a racist God (meaning a God who discriminates based on race)?

Page 7 Priesthood Mormon and Blacks

Tortdog:

So? They have stated that Plural Marriage is essential for Exaltation as well as other statements, your point?

Do you believe that every word that comes out from a GA is considered doctrine?

There were several Black men ordained to the Priesthood in the early days. You have Elijah Abel, Walker Lewis, William Mc Cary, Enoch Abel (son of Elijah Abel) and Elijah Abel (grandson of Elijah Abel, ordained as far as 1935).

It's a game of words. I do not think God was "racist" but he indeed gave certain "privileges" to certain people FIRST. This can be interpreted as "racist", sure. In this particular case, it is my OPINION and PERSONAL view that the early leaders were just caught up in the prejudice that existed at that time. That's all.

Some historical and interesting facts about this issue (check bold writing as well):

https://www.blacklds.org/mormon/history.html

Priesthood Mormon and Blacks

Warily enters discussion.

During my time as an enlisted sailor in the US Navy I was constantly hammered by this supposed embarrassment to the LDS Church. Consequently I researched this topic and prayed about it a lot. My views on the topic can be very well summed up with tortdog's earlier views as well.

There were many things that were addressed early on in the church. Trinity, polygamy, consecration to name just a few. These issues were all individually addressed by the Lord.

I believe that the Lords silence on the matter should be interpreted as acceptance.

It's a game of words. I do not think God was "racist" but he indeed gave certain "privileges" to certain people FIRST. This can be interpreted as "racist", sure. In this particular case, it is my OPINION and PERSONAL view that the early leaders were just caught up in the prejudice that existed at that time. That's all.

I believe LDS_Forever makes a good point here. However, it is impossible for us to know if blacks were denied the priesthood because God wanted them to wait while his choice people received it first, or if it was based on supposed racism of the early leaders. There are so many different opinions mingled with doctrine that we will probably never know the answer for sure. In my personal opinion though, I find it hard to believe that if the Lord had no desire to see these blessings being withheld from an entire race of people He would have stepped in earlier to put an end to a belief based on the personal biases of the presiding authorities.

Edited: bobnbrittw on 1st Sep, 2007 - 3:37am

Blacks & The Mormon Priesthood

As this is a mature subject on the reasons for limiting the Priesthood, I feel comfortable expressing my opinion.

I have to go back into history to even see why the priesthood was restricted.

As I read in Matthew concerning cultural biases that occurred, I read Jesus's words concerning the Canaanite Woman (who I assume had black skin)

Matt. 15: 26-27

I never knew why Christ called a certain nation of people dogs (the Canaanites). If this is a correct translation even the Son of God was affected by the traditions of his Fathers. Are we to say that Christ was racist because he did not give the full blessings of the Gospel universally to the Canaanites? That has always confused me as much as the early church not giving the priesthood to members who had a certain skin color.

I ask, mostly because I do not know. Was it wrong for Christ not preach and extend all blessings to the Canaanites?

Is it right in any dispensation to forbid a race or nation or tribe to hold the priesthood.

As I see it, until the early parts of the Church and 1978 the priesthood was restricted to certain people universally.

I am grateful that all historical restrictions have been removed for all worthy members of the Church.

I still wonder however why the priesthood was restricted through most of the 6000 years of our Earths Temporal existence.

Blacks & Mormon Priesthood - Page 7

Dbackers:

Elder Talmage in "Jesus The Christ" translates the word "dog" as "little dog", or basically a pet and did not have a bad connotation even though it sounds like. He was just illustrating the point.

We are fully aware that Christ came for the Jewish people NOT for the Gentiles. The Gentiles were meant to receive the Gospel after his death. The fact remained that he did heal this child's woman regardless of her background.

The issue I have with the Blacks and the Priesthood is that we have a Revelation that extends the Priesthood to all worthy male (1978), where is the Revelation that God took it away from them in the first place since they were Blacks holding the Priesthood in the time of Joseph Smith! Since I see NO evidence about it, I conclude it was merely a "mindset" of that time and the early leaders were NOT the exception in thinking the black man was inferior.

Blacks & Mormon Priesthood Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 7

So true,

The prejudices of men are universally destructive to all institutions, good and bad.

I am grateful that it was a revelation that extended the priesthood to all worthy males, and that God brought up Men who could accept righteous change. I see this in President Hinkley who has visited and loved saints around the World, regardless of their race or color.

I believe the Christ, through his Church, is moving to unite all men in the covenant relationship of God and his children. I am hoping that the Church and its members can grow closer to the Savior's ideal of men loving one another regardless of differences.