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Doctrine of Segregation - Page 2

Hi,

I have been pondering upon this subject for some years and the more I ponder the more I find it very very touching.

What made me to be born of my parents? By the way I am very proud of them and I could not wish any better parents other them.
Continuing on what made you to be born of your parents?
What makes a Chinese baby to be born of a Chinese parents for example?
What made an Indian baby to be born of a Indian parents?
With this same analyse in mind we could question each and every one race.

To have these questions answered from the scriptures is almost impossible since the answers are not there that I know of.

As fair as intermingling races I am quite aware of the Old Testament and and the Book of Mormon warning NOT to and the consequences if the commandment is broken.

What is the view of God in regard to this for our time I don't know but I would love to know. I am not sure if the Lord has revealed his views on this subject neither to our modern prophets.

My theory is that what make us to be born white or dark skin or a mixture of the two is much to do with our pre-existence and is all about merit and progressing. Also line upon line precept upon precept is also part of this eternal principle of how we are to be born from who and when. When comes to God's plain nothing is accidently. I was not accidently born from my parents and my parents are the very best I could merit or afford.

So when comes to intermingle I believe we should honour our parents and not spoil their posterity. Having said that I believe we should be very wise as to who we marry.

Segregation Doctrine

One of the early Prophets shared some similar thoughts but I would like you to explain a little more...are you saying that those who were born with a specific race or skin color have been more spiritually ready or prepared in the pre-existance? And if that's so, how did you reach such conclusion?

Doctrine of Segregation Studies Doctrine Mormon

In trying to answer your question LDS_forever, let's take one isolated case just for the sake of understanding by an analysis and for our purpose here I think the children of Adam are a most suitable example. Abel and Cain were legitimated brothers with the same complex, appearance and colour. Well, they were until Cain murdered Abel. From this episodic event resulted that God cursed Cain with a sore curse. Not only himself but each and everyone of his seed were cursed. Adam also begot Seth who certainly had the same genes as Abel in all the essentials of life.

From this moment on two races were born historically. And they were forbidden to intermingle one with another seed. if they would the same sore curse would imply to their children also. Cain begot children, Seth and other children of Adam also begot children. The question is then, to be born of Cain or to be born of Seth what would be the most logical wisely approach from our Heavenly Father as to which spirits are to be born of Cain and of his seeds? Cain turned to be a murder and in consequence of cursed sorely by Our Heavenly Father, but why would his seed been penalised for his weakness? There is no apparently connection is there?

NO CONNECTION NOT THAT I CAN SEE. The same goes to say we are to be judged by our own transgression and not by Adam.

God is a perfect Being. He is a perfect Father. We are all his spirit children. And yet some spirits seem to have more privileges than others based on who their parents ought to be. BUT WHY? Well, maybe privileges have no counting on this after all Our Father in Heaven is perfect and justice. WHY THEN?

Well, I have pondered on this issue so much and I can't find no scriptures to tell me why of this adverseness or to explain to me with reasoning.

BUT the scriptures tell us about how the Great Council in heaven took place even before the foundation of this world in which we live. In that Great Council a division of spirits took place when and where 2/3 remained on the side of Jesus Christ and 1/3 on the side of Lucifer who followed him. Out of that we know those spirits who follow Lucifer will never have terrestrial parents.

How is it then that out of the 2/3 spirits some prospered or advanced far more than others since we all took the same party? Some even advanced to become prophets as is clear the case of the prophet Joseph Smith.

Another great example of advancement in prosperity in the pre-mortal life is the Virgin Mary. I suppose among billions of billions she was the only one chosen to be the mother of the Lamb. Was it because she was pure or purer? Yes, certainly she was. Bur what made her purer among all other virgins? Do you think it was accidentally? No way, not possible. How do you explain then? Well, the scriptures don't tell us. But if I may give my opinion here is my opinion. She literally grew from one grace to the next, line upon line precept upon precept, until there were none like her. No difference as to how our Lord Jesus Christ was chosen to be our Savour, none of us were any near like him to be chosen.

Yet other spirits advanced so much slower within this frame of time that they have no other choice but to tabernacle bodies which will show their dark skin colour as a token of inferiority. At least biblically speaking the purpose behind the cursing was to outstand inferiority on Cain and on his seeds.

Would it be that out of the 2/3 spirits some were sort of being in between staying on the side of Jesus Christ and some as to follow Lucifer? Is our birth the production of our spiritual growth between this Great Council and the instance we were conceived?

I actually think it is. But I can't be certain for is not a revelation. Though basically each one of us get the tabernacle for which we worked for in our pre-mortal life until the right instance we are conceived. In the instance we are conceived our memory is taken away from our mind and we remember our pre-existence no more. MERIT AND PROSPERITY from our pre-mortal existence may be then the REAL KEY for answering this great unknown mystery.

My thoughts are not scriptures but theory only. I may be right or I may be totally wrong. Or anything in between. Nevertheless I am interested to know if it ought to be some viewers who may think on the same lines.

Message Edited! Persephone: Learn how to use the quote tag.

Page 2 Segregation Doctrine

The Old Testament sheds light on this by indicating that was is done by the parent is usually perpetuated by the children up to the "third and fourth generations". This is no different from what is in the Book of Mormon.

It is likely that although we agreed, the level of conviction may have been different for each one of us. For instance some who are here today may have needed a lot of convincing and yet they were unsure up to the last minute. According to what has been written by the early Prophets it would seem that the race issue determines those that needed 'more convincing' as a simple example or in other words the weaker ones.

Here is something interesting to note though... considering that most LDS today who are aware of this Doctrine will point to the white caucasian as being the more blessed, then we must consider the Jew - is he white? Was Jesus caucasian? In this light we have to see that when Christ came he made all things new and the need for race was no longer criteria for membership in his Kingdom.

Related: This is covered more in the Mature section as it relates to Blacks and the Priesthood.

Segregation Doctrine

Wow a great topic to read. Thanks everyone for your posts. I have thought a lot and study on this subject and some ideas I would like to contribute. Personally I do not believe that at anytime the the Lord discriminated by color. That is never been the doctrine of the curch particulary about the curse of Cain. In the old testament the mark of cain in the hebrew refers to an actual Mark and that Mark was to protect Cain from the Vengeance of Ables family. Second, Check out the book "Tolerence" By Elder John K. Carmack of the seventy. This book provides the most explicit renunication by a church leader of the false ideas of back and dark skin curses. High Nibley also alludes to this as well in many of his writings.
Remember Joseph Smith ordained a black man to the priesthood before his death.
He says in the Lecture of faith:
"It is also necessary that men should have an idea that (God) is no respecter of persons ("but in every nation he that fears God and works righteousness is accepted of him."), for which the idea of all the other excellencies in his character, and this one wanting, men could not exercise faith in Him; because if he were a respecter of persons, They could not tell what their privileges were, nor how far they are authorized to do it all, but all must be confusion; but no sooner are the minds of men made acquainted with the eternal truth on this point, that he is no respecter of persons, then they see they have authority by faith to lay hold on eternal life, the richest boon of heaven God is no respecter of persona, and that every man in every nation has an equal privilege." Lectures on faith Lecture 3

I am grateful for the revelation that all men can accept the ordinances of the kingdom, that we have come to the universal idea and acceptance of all men as God's Children. But I am afraid we have a way to go, because we still hold the old tradition that some have sinned in the pre-existence, thus we segregate them and still have not accepted them on equal grounds. another good reading on this subject si "Making Peace" by Eugene England.

Doctrine of Segregation

Isiah53 said:

Have you read several quotes of Prophets and Church leaders concerning the curse of Cain? Here are some:

Now there are also scriptures that support the conection between Cain and the Black race:

Correct and even the descendants of Elijah Abel received the Priesthood until 1935. What suddenly happen after that then?

Doctrine Segregation - Page 2

Thanks for you reply,
I am aware of the remarks written by Elder Joseph Fielding Smith and others before him that speculate about race. Is that revelation? or speculation. I also know that Brigham Young and others talked about the mentally inferior negro who needed white man to direct their affairs, and life. We know that is not true. In fact that of black curse of cain and negro inferiority in a theological perspective is a belief that has come from the victorian line of thought, and persisted into LDS thought as well. We did not come up with that doctrine. It was always assumed by all christendom at this time. Do we not all make assumptions about others and life through our cultural views, and structures? re we not products of our time and culture. The only person I am aware of to ever not do that is Jesus. Has the Lord not changed our views and perspectives before when we were ready to receive it. D&C 1 24- 28 says:

24 Behold, I am God and have spoken it; these commandments"¢ are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language"¢, that they might come to understanding"¢.
25 And inasmuch as they erred"¢ it might be made known;
26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom"¢ they might be instructed;
27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;
28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time.

The Lord says that culture plays a big role in how we understand, receive, teach, and describe eternal truths. That is why modern revelation is needed and so very important, as we progress as a people, we need more insight as to our understanding, to break past our assumptions and attitudes. In the case of past prophets perhaps their cultural assumptions allowed for them to keep that perspective. We learn line upon line precept upon precept. We have to challenge our assumptions, and ask in order to receive.
Is this not what happened in 1979? The prophet challenged our assumptions about blacks due to the cultural shift and civil rights movement, and asked. It was only then we were ready to tear down the traditions of the fathers and receive more light and knowledge.

That fact that Joseph Smith was ok with ordaining a black man speaks volumes as to how he perceived their situation. So I yes such ideas have prevailed in the church and still does to some extent, but does that make it doctrine? Does it in some ways contradict our current view of God, and how He treats others? WOuld it be fair if any of us come into this earth with a mark against them, not on equal footing as the next man?

Elder Packard said about moving into the third-world nations as a church said: "We can't move there with all the baggage we produce and carry here!" (address to the church coordinating committee meeting, Sept 8, 1997.)

Elder Hunter said: The gospel of Jesus Christ transcends nationally and color, crosses cultural lines, and blends distinctiveness into common brotherhood... All men are invited to come to come unto him and all are alike unto Him. Race makes no difference....As members of the Lord's church, we need to lift our vision beyond personal prejudices. We need to discover the supreme truth that indeed our Father is no respecter of persons." (Ensign, June 1979)

We have made great strides in the church in this area, but we still need to face this idea and notion that set in our cultural and not doctrinal sphere. Even though we allow no distinction in priesthood, we still hold on the notion of moral superiority within race, via pre-existence.
There are some very good books, and articles by LDS writers who look at this idea closer and understanding the history of race in the church.

Doctrine Segregation Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

You tell me, he was a Prophet of God.

I totally agree that may not be true, yet my whole point on this thread is to show that prophets have spoken about these things, not any and anybody...a Prophet of God. When they are speaking in Conference, with all the Saints gathering...then it must be something important to share. I never read that they were just giving their opinion about the matter.

I will not say so. In the New Testament we can see that Jesus Christ came to the Jews only not to the Gentiles...do you remember this story?

Even though Jesus healed the woman's daughter, he made sure to tell her that he was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel. So we can see he did in fact made a difference between both groups.

Sadly, these "assumptions" prevented for years that worthy male members of the Church could receive the Priesthood. So I cannot take it lightly as just thinking that the past prophets were just following the trend at that time, because when a decision is made with regards to the Spiritual Salvation of Church members, then it is interpreted that is coming from God now if you are saying that in fact the Prophets were just being racial based on the norm at that time, then we are indirectly saying that certain revelations some of the Prophets had were in fact pure speculation and opinion and NOT revelation.

The quote of Elder Hunter and so many others are very interesting because they come after the Revelation of 1978. Before that, there was only silence.

What about the Scriptures I quoted before in Moses and Abraham? It's clearly that the Lord made a distinction based on race.