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Lucifer Tells the Truth... - Page 3

I have several LDS friends who are simultaneously Muslims. Sounds pretty strange I know but it's true.  They have not been ex-communicated from the Church - they instead are put on 'hold' (whatever that means). There is definite reluctance on the part of the Church to Ex-communicate someone who lives his life in accordance to Gospel Principles and in addition prays five times a day and lives in accordance with Islam. I have learned in my many years living in Saudi Arabia the differences and many similarities between traditionalist Sunni Islam and the LDS Church and it seems there is much we can learn from one another.  The LDS Church has moved quite a long distance in the past 5 to 10 years in accepting the teachings of the Quran and Islam. Check out Time Magazine of a year or so ago. I have often used quotes from the Quran when giving several prepared Sacrament Presentations as well as two Semi-annual Church conferences in the Arabian Peninsula Stake.  Both of my talks were well-received and one was given with Elder Didier - A GA Seventy and no Higher Church Authority  has ever criticized or reprimanded me for doing so.  If you have a Quran, read Sura 23 called Al-Mu'minum (The Believers).  I was surprised when my Saudi Students asked me one day (after I had sternly lectured them about smoking, drinking alcohol, etc, etc) what religion I belonged to. I told them I was a Mormon. Of course what they heard was 'Momen' which to them means a True Believer so they commented to me that they really didn't think I was Christian and that it was good to hear I was a Believer since Christians don't talk the way I talked - especially against the evils of smoking, drinking etc. .  5 or 6 of them wanted to learn more about the 'Mormons' belief system. I of course and no one in fact is allowed to proselyte in Saudi Arabia (It is illegal).  Another interesting story comes from a 2nd counselor in the Bishopric in the Khobar Branch and a friend of mine who was arrested for organizing and taking part in religious activities not in harmony with Islam.  He spent a month in jail and then went to Sharia court. Sharia court uses the Holy Quran as the law and for guidance in judging cases before it. There is a panel of 3 Sharia Judges. Conviction would mean lashes and deportation for this brother. While in jail, he encountered other proselyters who told him that he should be able to answer the question Is Jesus, the Christ the literal Son of God? Yes would mean lashes and deportation. No would mean he would be denying his faith.  At the Judgement hearing, the spokes-judge questioned him on all his personal activities and his family and life and then he said Now, here is the most important question for you today - Was Jesus, the Messiah the ..Son of Mary? The Judge saved him from prosecution  and Bert was able to answer 'Yes' with great relief. Of course we all prayed for him to be delivered and he did as well but the fact is that many Muslims understand our point of view. The 1st Presidency has advised us in Arabia NOT to proselyte until the time is right.
In my own case,  What my students meant by true believer comes from their knowledge of Surat 23 in the Quran.

And yes, I have been to the Temple, have received my endowments, have been married for all time and eternity in the temple and am busy working on my Genealogy.

We have much to offer Muslims but they too have much to teach us.  And finally, of course I recognize that the Quran is not considered officially sanctioned Scripture by the 1st Presidency or any other Christian group. I suspect it is only because so few Christians have read and pondered it.  It has simply been ignored.  I recommend anyone to read it and pray about it to see for themselves.  It is a powerful testament by God himself written through the Angel Gabriel.

Truth Tells Lucifer

[quote]Of course I am and of course I do.  They have nothing to do with how I feel about the Quran.  I'll wait for your response before I expound. [/quote]

The whole thing about this thread is that one cannot use something for its 'part truth' or 'half truth' if they are to follow God's way. I can now see why you wrestle with certain doctrines. The Quran has good quotes, sayings, referrences, etc. Would I quote from it? Sure! In fact if you looked carefully at the random quote text box above you will see quotes from the Quran and other religious books, but to say you follow the precepts of the Quran and it teaches that Christ is not the Son of God, Savior of the World and that he did not die for our sins you are in great error as a Christian. You said you quoted from the Quran when you gave your talk, I can see how some may have taken it in with a grain of salt, but I am sure you did not say this:
[quote]The Quran because I believe it to be a divine revelation to a Prophet of God and is full of truth.  I respect it as Scripture just as much if not more than the Holy Bible. [/quote]I am a member of a District Presidency locally, and I can tell you, if I was visiting your Branch where you gave a talk and said the above quote, I would surely pull you in an office for a little 'discussion'.
[quote]And finally, of course I recognize that the Quran is not considered officially sanctioned Scripture by the 1st Presidency or any other Christian group. I suspect it is only because so few Christians have read and pondered it.  It has simply been ignored.  I recommend anyone to read it and pray about it to see for themselves.  It is a powerful testament by God himself written through the Angel Gabriel. [/quote]
This is the same as asking the Prophet of the Lord in this day to decide if to make it part of the Standard Works. I would take the Quran with the same wisdom the Lord gave the Apocrypha in D&C 91. Also if you wish to promote the Quran as a spiritual reference I have nothing against that at all, but please use the Religions Board for that as I want established quotes, scriptures, etc to be based on LDS doctrine.

Lucifer Tells the Truth... Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]

The whole thing about this thread is that one cannot use something for its 'part truth' or 'half truth' if they are to follow God's way. I can now see why you wrestle with certain doctrines. .[/quote]

I remind you of an Article of Faith (11):
We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may

and (13)
We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Yes, I and many others I suspect struggle with certain doctrines (like the Life in the Spirit World immediately after death) because I personally cannot read the hundreds of references in the Bible that point to a deep unconscious sleep until the resurrection and then read several contradictory passages in D&C and several Pauline Scripture references and be satisfied. I search for more consistency amongst Scriptures because Eternal truths ought to be consistent throughout scripture and doctrine. I have no problem in rationalizing baptisms for the dead since I know they will have the opportunity (1000 years) to accept the Gospel and our Savior after the 1st resurrection.  

I have an open but principled mind that filters what is demonstrated to be wrong and clings to what is found to be fact or truth regardless of where the fact or truth comes from.  And of course I like to filter my findings in the end with prayer to confirm it.  

In addition, I would never pretend to tell the 1st Presidency what to do and what to accept as Scripture.  (I honor and respect the 1st Presidency and Pres. Hinckley for 'not' condemning the Quran as false or wrong doctrine) (If they ever do and they give solid reasons why we should ignore its message and instructions, then I will reconsider). In Journals and Discourses (which are not scriptural or necessarily 'inspired'), I once read Elder Bruce McConkie ignorantly criticize Muslims and Islam in general.  When someone asks me praytell "why the Quran" should be considered in my list of Scriptures, I respond as I should.  No one has the right to tell me not to consider a well-accepted (not by the LDS Church or other Christian Churches), pivotal Scriptural work - akin to the revealed religions of Judaism and Christianity - especially one as influential as the Quran is in the world today.  It sounds depressingly like Preachers who denounced the BOM to their congregations in the 1850s because it didn't fit in with 'their' accepted doctrine and world view.
I defend the BOM just as vehemently as I do the Quran -even though I am not a Muslim.  I see Muslims as our Brothers who need to understand more fully the role of the Savior and his atonement in their lives.    

In my talks, of course I didn't preface my quote with the one I did in my answer to your inquiry - No need to.

Also, You are the one who asked why praytell include the Quran? I neither volunteered it nor insisted on an answer that included the Quran. It was last in my list.  In fact, the Quran is more closely aligned with the Deep Sleep, Peaceful rest until the Resurrection when Jesus, the Messiah rules the Earth for 1,000 years scenario than with the Active Spirit World scenario until the first resurrection. I didn't really expect anyone to quote from the Quran. I prefer to have the Standard Works and/or the Ensign.  LDS-Forever has provided many of them and I am thankful for her search.  I wonder how she or you square them with the other scriptures seemingly contradictory to that position.  That's what I am searching for - a resolution - a synthesis if you will.

As far as the Quran goes. I'll avoid even mentioning the Quran in this forum from this point forward since you want to keep the forum restricted to the Accepted Standard Works - No problem.  I'll take the Quran stuff to the Religions category if it comes up there.

Page 3 Truth Tells Lucifer

[quote]Also, You are the one who asked why praytell include the Quran? [/quote]
Of course, finding out is the basic rule of knowledge, I must know where you intend to lead with your statements. One cannot understand or respond to something without knowing the why, what, when, etc. Do not become frail when asked...

[quote]As far as the Quran goes. I'll avoid even mentioning the Quran in this forum [/quote]
Just the LDS board, not the entire forum.

[quote]I'll take the Quran stuff to the Religions category if it comes up there.  [/quote]
Well actually there are many posts in the international news and Religious board about the Quran, Islam, Muslims, etc. I think there is a thread called 'Islam 101' that you may be able to contribute well too because of your experience living in the Middle East. Actually, there is also a quiz in the quiz section. I am sure you will score tops in that.

As for your other words I can say only this;

Permit me to respectfully disagree with you, but I do understand how you analyze your affairs concerning the doctrine of the Church. I also want to say that I value your contribution to the forum and your new insight and school of thoight - it brings a new aspect of a belief system that I am sure is unknown to many.

Truth Tells Lucifer

[quote].  LDS-Forever has provided many of them and I am thankful for her search.  I wonder how she or you square them with the other scriptures seemingly contradictory to that position.  That's what I am searching for - a resolution - a synthesis if you will.  [/quote]

I know what you mean Nephi, there are lots of scriptures in the Bible that talks about a 'deep sleep' and unawareness of our dead ones. But like anything else in the Scriptures, there is an interpretation for it. I found this in a web site that may answer your question:

Question: "Doesn't the Bible teach that the dead are unconscious as if they were asleep?

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for  the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 - emphasis added)

"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17, cf. 6:5)

"These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead." (John 11:11-14, cf. 1 Thessealonians 4:13-17)

Answer:

God creates one's body from the dust of the earth and places one's spirit within. As a result, each individual has a dual nature of body and spirit, which joined together constitutes a living soul. Upon physical death, the body and the spirit separate. The body returns to "the earth as it was", and the spirit returns unto "God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Although the BODY has NO consciousness after death, the disembodied spirit continues to exist as a sentient being; retaining the ability to THINK, FEELl, and REMEMBER the knowledge acquired here in mortality.

Some argue that the verses quoted above contradict the belief that there is life after death. They say that the dead have neither knowledge, thoughts, nor emotions; and that they exist in an unconscious "sleep" state. But in spite of what some may say, there is no contradiction between these verses and a belief in the afterlife; for the very reason that the verses quoted above are concerning CORPSES, not DISEMBODIED spirits. Both are referred to as the "dead" in the Bible (e.g. Genesis 23:6 and Isaiah 14:9-10).
Physical death is the separation of one's body and spirit:
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7, cp. James 2:26)

When a person's spirit and body separate; one's thoughts depart with the spirit; leaving behind a body in which all thoughts perish:  "His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Psalms 146:4)

Note that the "he" in Psalms 146:4 must be referring to the BODY, because it is the body that "returneth" to the earth, not the SPIRIT (cp. Genesis 3:19 & Ecclesiastes 12:7). Likewise, since it is the spirit that "knoweth the things of a man"; all of one's knowledge also perishes within the body after the spirit leaves. Consequently, the dead (i.e. corpses) know nothing and will eventually go to the grave:

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. . . . Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 - emphasis added)

Referring to these verses, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote, " . . . when death intervenes, the body is laid away in the grave
peacefully and that it knows nothing as to the affairs of a busy world." (Answers To Gospel Questions, Vol. 4, p.183)

Non-LDS scholar Donald C. Fleming agrees: "the dead know nothing: the context (or one look at a corpse) makes the meaning obvious." (F. F. Bruce, The International Bible Commentary, p. 699).

In verse 10, the word "grave" is translated from the Hebrew word sheol, which has several meanings depending on the context in which it is used. It can be translated as "hades", "grave", "hell", "pit", or "world of the dead." Thus, the term can refer to the spirit world or part of it. But the context of Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10 is describing a different place; a place where there is "no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom"; a place where "the dead know not any thing." What could be more descriptive of the "grave" or tomb in which a corpse is laid to rest? Moreover, since a corpse has no mental or emotional faculties, it cannot
do anything, much less praise the LORD:
"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalms 115:17, cp. 6:5)

Many other verses can also be understood in terms of a corpse. Examples: a corpse is buried (Genesis 23:15); a corpse returns to dust (Psalms 104:29); a corpse is laid in the grave (Psalms 49:14); a corpse is silent (Psalms 31:17); a corpse cannot perceive (Job 14:21); a corpse cannot hope (Isaiah 38 :18 ) ; and a corpse "sleeps" (Job 14: 10, 12).

You can visit this web site at: https://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/thedead.shtml

It's a great page where ALL your questions about this are answered, for obvious reasons, I cannot put here the whole article. Hope it helps and let me know your thoughts when you fisnishing reading the whole thing.

Lucifer Tells the Truth...

Thank you for the info.  Jeff Lindsay does a great job of clarifying this complex topic. Semantics seems to get in the way of many when considering this point.  Lindsay makes a great case for the 'dead' meaning the tabernacle or body or corpse. When I read the verses I brought up earlier in this thread with the idea of 'corpse', I then understand more clearly. Of course Jeff Lindsay makes a lot of sense when he describes the dual nature of man - and thus it becomes easier to 'square' the two (inactive sleeping body and active spirit in the spirit world dichotomy) seemingly conflicting scriptural references. This all goes to show how important it is sometimes to allow others to lead us up the stair-steps of knowledge.
Once again, thank you for the reference. I feel a lot less conclicted about the matter and now will re-read scriptures with a new insight. Over and out.  

Lucifer Tells Truth... - Page 3

I'm very happy that the reference was helpful . I like to do research because it helps me to understand the scriptures better.  If there is any other topic you need references for, let me know okay. You may want to start a new thread to do that.

Lucifer Tells Truth... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

Journal of Discourses, Vol.8, p.87, Heber C. Kimball, June 3, 1860

Do you think that a Saint will steal poles, or go to a man's wood pile and steal his fire-wood? Or do you believe that a Saint will lie and do that which will prejudice a man against his friends? This is the way Lucifer acts; and probably the last thing he did before he left heaven was to take the census; and calculate that he will leave here soon, seeing that he has commenced to take the census.

Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.243, Wilford Woodruff, October 22, 1865

You may trace the history of the kingdom of God from that time down and you will find this prevailing among the nations of the earth. They were prone to evil, to sin, to blasphemy, to lie, to steal, to swear, to commit adultery, to pollute the earth which they inherited, in their day and generation, and hence it was an impossibility for the Lord to establish His kingdom among the children of men, unless He could find willing minds enough to receive that kingdom, to build it up and sustain it and do the works of righteousness. The devil did not make this earth. It never belonged to him, and never will; but Lucifer was cast down to the earth with the third part of the hosts of heaven, and they have dwelt here until to-day. They remain here yet; and they have had their effect upon the hearts and minds and lives of the children of men for nearly six thousand years-from the time that man was cast out of the Garden of Eden into the cold and dreary world.