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Name: Jamber Country: Comments: Two Mormons - Page 3 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 14th Jul, 2011 - 4:33am
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Post Date: 13th Jul, 2011 - 6:02am / Post ID: #
Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney - Page 3
My last reply, because you seem unwilling to understand.
If you take those programs BEFORE you replace them, which is what is intended by the GOP who's only interests in this debate is more $$ for the greedy, Children will starve, the elderly will have to choose between heart medicine and food, the decline and disappearance of the middle class will continue.
Cutting out food stamps= hungry kids. You said Christ would vote for that, yes?
Cuts in SS and throwing medicare to the wolves would = poverty for the elderly who paid into these programs. YOU said Christ wold vote for this, yes?
That's pretty straight forward. I wont even bother to ask you to back up this belief of yours with Scripture because it isn't there.
In 2009 the Church added "to care for the poor and needy" to it's mission statement.
Luke 6
QUOTE 24But woe unto you that are arich! for ye have breceived your consolation.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26Woe unto you, when all amen shall speak bwell of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
25Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26Woe unto you, when all amen shall speak bwell of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
Luke 12
QUOTE 16And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
17And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to abestow my fruits?
18And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19And I will say to my soul, aSoul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, beat, drink, and be merry.
20But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy asoul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21So is he that layeth up atreasure for bhimself, and is not rich toward God.
17And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to abestow my fruits?
18And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
19And I will say to my soul, aSoul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, beat, drink, and be merry.
20But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy asoul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
21So is he that layeth up atreasure for bhimself, and is not rich toward God.
1 Tim 6
QUOTE 17Charge them that are arich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain briches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to adistribute, willing to bcommunicate;
19aLaying up in bstore for themselves a good foundation cagainst the time to come, that they may lay hold on deternal life.
18That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to adistribute, willing to bcommunicate;
19aLaying up in bstore for themselves a good foundation cagainst the time to come, that they may lay hold on deternal life.
2Nehpi 9
QUOTE 30But wo unto the arich, who are brich as to the things of the cworld. For because they are rich they despise the dpoor, and they persecute the meek, and their ehearts are upon their treasures; wherefore, their ftreasure is their god. And behold, their gtreasure shall perish with them also.
Now see that is What Reagan did, he demonized the poor as all lazy when that is far from true. Especially now so many have lost jobs they have held for 20 years. And he made Greed a virtue which it can never be. Beck and Rush spout the same lies and vileness today.
I could quote for ever on what the scriptures say about caring for the poor, Charity and loving thy neighbor, but my friend your heart is hard and you will not hear. So I am done for my own good and sanity. I hope maybe some of it has seeped into your heart.
I will not reply, so you can have the last word if you have one.
But I know God is aware of us all. He is aware of our troubles and struggles. He does hold to his promises and is there for us. But sometimes he needs us to reach out to others because that is the way it is supposed to be. Sometimes we need to be the hand of God and help those in need. I know he wants all of his children to return and have eternal life and progression. I know he loves a starving child in Chile and a frightened mother in Iraq and you and I all the same. He wants us to reach out to our brothers and sisters with love and support and food, and money. I know Christ gave his life for us that we could live again and that he paid for every wrong I have done. I know the church is true, I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the church for these last days and that the United order will be again on this earth.
I say these thing in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.
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Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
QUOTE If you take those programs BEFORE you replace them, which is what is intended by the GOP who's only interests in this debate is more $$ for the greedy, Children will starve, the elderly will have to choose between heart medicine and food, the decline and disappearance of the middle class will continue.
Cutting out food stamps= hungry kids. You said Christ would vote for that, yes?
Cuts in SS and throwing medicare to the wolves would = poverty for the elderly who paid into these programs. YOU said Christ wold vote for this, yes?
That's pretty straight forward.
Cutting out food stamps= hungry kids. You said Christ would vote for that, yes?
Cuts in SS and throwing medicare to the wolves would = poverty for the elderly who paid into these programs. YOU said Christ wold vote for this, yes?
That's pretty straight forward.
How so? Why not put the money back into the economy which will produce more jobs which will reduce the number of starving kids? And there are many other things that can be done such as bringing back the very successful original JTPA and TJTC programs which were repealed by Clinton's I'll-conceived WIA. It's pretty straight forward but you seem to assume, erroneously, that food stamps and other handouts are the solution.
Did you know that the LDS Church has enshired in it's doctrine the "Teach a man to fish" principle? Your socialist "solutions" are contrary to that. I can assure that when the Church helps it's poor, it is in limited and carefully managed fashion which makes sure that those who are capable of working do just that and that extravagant spending and lifestyle are curtailed before more help is forth comming.
QUOTE I wont even bother to ask you to back up this belief of yours with Scripture because it isn't there.
LDS doctrine teaches against the government dole. Where are your scriptures to back up government welfare and socialist programs? You have none because as I have shown, God is a free-marketeer.
QUOTE In 2009 the Church added "to care for the poor and needy" to it's mission statement.
Yes. There is no problem with Churches helping the poor.
QUOTE Now see that is What Reagan did, he demonized the poor as all lazy when that is far from true. Especially now so many have lost jobs they have held for 20 years. And he made Greed a virtue which it can never be. Beck and Rush spout the same lies and vileness today.
If they held them for the past 20 years Reagan plays no part in their loss. In fact Reagan went along with all the Democrat's misbegotten schemes in order to fund the military build-up which collapsed communism and so he along with the Democrats are responsible for the debt that was accumulated in the 1980's.
Thank God for the Republican Congress in the 1990's which forced Clinton to balance the budget. Now that Dems have had control of all three branches of government for a period, look where we are now. Our national debt has more than tripled during Obama's administration alone and his trillion dollar handout to his cronies failed to stimulate the economy. And it's going to get worse the longer he's in office except that we now have the barest of conservative brakes on his train to nowhere.
But I am not a Republican and I am not so ignorant as to blame inexorable economic cycles on current or previous administrations except where they exacerbate them like the current Obama administration has. His stimulus did not work. Bush's worked and is still working against the antiGospel policies of the Marxist Obama.
QUOTE I could quote for ever on what the scriptures say about caring for the poor, Charity and loving thy neighbor
And I would agree with every scripture you care to quote. But I notice you cannot quote any in favor of a Socialist modus operandi or against existing LDS doctrine which equates it with Satan's plan.
QUOTE I know Joseph Smith was called to restore the church for these last days and that the United order will be again on this earth.
I look forward to it as the free market will be the order of the day. Here is some LDS doctrine on the United Order for you from the same Enrichment section L of the D&C manual I referred to earlier:
QUOTE The stewardship is private, not communal, property . The consecrator, or steward, was to be given a "writing," or deed, that would 'secure unto him his portion [stewardship]" ( D&C 51:4 ). Although it has been acknowledged that all things belong to the Lord, a stewardship represents a sacred entrustment of a portion from God to the individual. The stewardship is given with a deed of ownership so that individuals, through their agency, are fully responsible and accountable for that which is entrusted to them. The deed protects individuals if they are disqualified from participation as stewards (see D&C 51:4 ). For legal purposes, the stewardship was private property, even though the stewards themselves understood that it ultimately belonged to God. President Marion G. Romney explained:
"This procedure [of providing deeds] preserved in every man the right of private ownership and management of his property. Indeed, the fundamental principle of the system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which, at his option, he could alienate [transfer], keep and operate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and life under the united order was not, and never will be, a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph himself said.
"This procedure [of providing deeds] preserved in every man the right of private ownership and management of his property. Indeed, the fundamental principle of the system was the private ownership of property. Each man owned his portion, or inheritance, or stewardship, with an absolute title, which, at his option, he could alienate [transfer], keep and operate, or otherwise treat as his own. The Church did not own all of the property, and life under the united order was not, and never will be, a communal life, as the Prophet Joseph himself said.
QUOTE The expressions in the revelations describing the portion or stewardship as "equal" ( D&C 51:3 ; see also D&C 70:14 ) does not mean equality in the sense that all are exactly the same. President J. Reuben Clark Jr. Explained: "One of the places in which some of the brethren are going astray is this: There is continuous reference in the revelations to equality among the brethren, but I think you will find only one place where that equality is really described, though it is referred to in other revelations. That revelation ( D. & C. 51:3 ) affirms that every man is to be "equal according to his family, according to his circumstances and his wants and needs." (See also D. & C. 82:17 ; 78:5-6 .) Obviously, this is not a case of "dead level" equality. It is "equality" that will vary as much as the man's circumstances, his family, his wants and needs may vary." (In Conference Report, Oct. 1942, p. 55.)
QUOTE "They had all things common." The phrase 'they had all things common" ( Acts 4:32 ; see also Acts 2:44 ; 3 Nephi 26:19 ; 4 Nephi 1:3 ) is used to characterize those who lived the law of consecration in ancient times. Some have speculated that the term common suggests a type of communalism or "Christian Communism." This interpretation is in error. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the true nature of having all things common: "I preached on the stand about one hour on the 2nd chapter of Acts , designing to show the folly of common stock [holding property in common]. In Nauvoo every one is steward over his own [property]." ( History of the Church, 6:37-38.)
Edited: bcspace on 13th Jul, 2011 - 6:40amMormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney Studies Doctrine Mormon
Bc, didn't Jesus said we will always have the "poor" among us? So basically, taking away social programs to implement your idea isn't going to solve the problem. I lean towards the idea of reforming the system but not abolishing the whole thing completely. Also what do you exactly mean about equating salvation with money? I would like to know more about this, sounds quite disturbing.
Page 3 Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
Bsspace it seems to me that you're stuck on time (about the whole socialism idea and the Church). Unfortunately, Benson and others shared a lot of their personal opinion but it doesn't make it doctrinal and binding. Show me a official and current LDS position on this and I would happy to take a look. Even Glenn Becks gives an interesting view about the differences between socialism and helping for the poor and needy, can't remember where it is but you can google it. I respect your opinion but I completely disagree on trying to make the Church have an official position on the matter.
Romney Mitt Huntsman Jon Mormons
QUOTE Bc, didn't Jesus said we will always have the "poor" among us?
Yes. Perhaps the idea is to stop having most people live handouts because it won't solve the problem.
QUOTE So basically, taking away social programs to implement your idea isn't going to solve the problem. I lean towards the idea of reforming the system but not abolishing the whole thing completely.
A matter of opinion, but socialist policies are contrary to LDS doctrine as I have been illustrating.
QUOTE Also what do you exactly mean about equating salvation with money? I would like to know more about this, sounds quite disturbing.
I am not equating it with money nor am I suggesting that money buys salvation. God's system of salvation however is analogous to a free market capitalist system.
We lay up treasures in heaven (through righteousness/obedience etc.) and we use the talents (or blessings) God has given us to increase their value. In other words, we invest and grow in value. God also rewards according to performance illustrated by degrees of salvation (thirtyfold, sixtyfold, one hundredfold). It is not suprising therefore that God's economy of salvation is essentially the same as the only economic system on the earth that does not come into conflict with God's commands and does not enslave.
QUOTE Bsspace it seems to me that you're stuck on time (about the whole socialism idea and the Church).
You won't be able to find any evidence that the Church has changed it's stance. For example, the manual I quoted from is the one still in use.
QUOTE Unfortunately, Benson and others shared a lot of their personal opinion but it doesn't make it doctrinal and binding.
The LDS Church doesn't differentiate between binding doctrine and nonbinding doctrine. What the Church publishes IS doctrine unless otherwise noted or contextually stated (a literal "my opinion" etc.)
QUOTE Even Glenn Becks gives an interesting view about the differences between socialism and helping for the poor and needy, can't remember where it is but you can google it.
Glenn Beck doesn't determine doctrine for the Church.
QUOTE I respect your opinion but I completely disagree on trying to make the Church have an official position on the matter.
While the Church does have an official position against socialism (which you seem to be opposed to since you don't accept the officially published words of ETB), it doesn't need to have one specifically because we can go to agency or the doctrine on the LoC to show that the tenents of socialism are contrary to LDS doctrine.
QUOTE 5. Provide work and service opportunities.
One of the most important basic principles includes providing work and service opportunities. For individuals to retain their dignity during a time of personal distress, opportunities for service and work commensurate with the recipients" circumstances should be found. The value of the work or service need not be equal to the assistance received but rather sufficient to avoid the evils of the dole and the fostering of an entitlement mentality. The ward council can assist by compiling and maintaining a list of meaningful work opportunities.
"The Welfare Responsibilities of the Bishop," Basic Principles of Welfare and Self-Reliance, (2009)
One of the most important basic principles includes providing work and service opportunities. For individuals to retain their dignity during a time of personal distress, opportunities for service and work commensurate with the recipients" circumstances should be found. The value of the work or service need not be equal to the assistance received but rather sufficient to avoid the evils of the dole and the fostering of an entitlement mentality. The ward council can assist by compiling and maintaining a list of meaningful work opportunities.
"The Welfare Responsibilities of the Bishop," Basic Principles of Welfare and Self-Reliance, (2009)
Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney
Bcspace:
QUOTE Yes. Perhaps the idea is to stop having most people live handouts because it won't solve the problem.
What do you suggest instead? Because I don't think you're naive enough to think that there won't be poor people.
Going back a little on the topic, right now I'm not so sure if I would like a Mormon president, the two proposed don't impress me at all.
Rather off topic, but...
Bc, you need to read this thread: Source 5 about what is official LDS doctrine according to the 2007 statement. I think it would prove that what RominaL was saying about President Benson's opinion it's true.
Bc, you need to read this thread: Source 5 about what is official LDS doctrine according to the 2007 statement. I think it would prove that what RominaL was saying about President Benson's opinion it's true.
Mormons Jon Huntsman Mitt Romney - Page 3
QUOTE What do you suggest instead? Because I don't think you're naive enough to think that there won't be poor people.
Very little government-wise needs to be done and there would be fewer problems than now. Healthcare-wise we could start letting people opt out of coverage and even design their own coverage. We should also begin to privatize the schools which will allow our children to excel.
Answer some questions for me and I'll start designing a solution for you or at least an illustration of how things aren't as bad as they seem:
How many "poor" citizens do you think there are in the US? 30 million? 40 million? 50 million? How much healthcare spending is there because of lifestyle choices like smoking or drinking?
QUOTE Going back a little on the topic, right now I'm not so sure if I would like a Mormon president, the two proposed don't impress me at all.
No, they are not conservative enough. But, their background is largely conservative (being LDS, they ostensibly believe in doctrine that dovetails with true conservatism). Plus, since all candidates are beholden to their party, the Republican Party generally welcomes conservatism whereas the Democratic Party does not. And in addition, the fight that is of the most importance is in the court appointments. The Democrats have been assimilating the nation with their court appointments and we need to reverse this downward slide into the Dark Ages, both economic and social.
Post Date: 14th Jul, 2011 - 4:33am / Post ID: #
Mormons Jon Huntsman Mitt Romney Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3
Name: Jamber
Country: 
Comments: Two Mormons running for President at the same time. I'm not a Mormon but it does look like your church is hoping to get a better chance with the GOP by sending more candidates.
TOPIC: Mormons - Jon Huntsman Vs Mitt Romney