Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse - Politics, Business, Civil, History - Posted: 6th May, 2004 - 3:42pm

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Iraq Prison Torture
6th May, 2004 - 10:35am / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?

Much has been in the news lately about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners of war. We have begun discussing this on other threads. Now, I think it is a big enough issue that it deserves it's own thread.

Just this morning, I heard a news report that the Red Cross had warned the "US" to address this issue a while ago. Now, just because we only recently began to hear of it doesn't mean the issue hasn't been looked at. I want to know what was done by those in authority after the Red Cross made it's concerns known. If nothing, people in high ranking positions need to be relieved of duty at a minimum.

I also see that President Bush had told Donald Rumsfeld he is not at all happy about they way he was informed of the problem...by the TV news reports! Somebody's head should roll when reports of such activities first make it to the President via new reports and not proper channels when official reports have been written about this problem prior to the reports.


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Post Date: 6th May, 2004 - 11:16am / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?
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Abuse Prisoner Iraqi

QUOTE (tenaheff @ 6-May 04, 6:35 PM)
Much has been in the news lately about the mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners of war. We have begun discussing this on other threads. Now, I think it is a big enough issue that it deserves it's own thread.

Just this morning, I heard a news report that the Red Cross had warned the "US" to address this issue a while ago. Now, just because we only recently began to hear of it doesn't mean the issue hasn't been looked at. I want to know what was done by those in authority after the Red Cross made it's concerns known. If nothing, people in high ranking positions need to be relieved of duty at a minimum.

I also see that President Bush had told Donald Rumsfeld he is not at all happy about they way he was informed of the problem...by the TV news reports! Somebody's head should roll when reports of such activities first make it to the President via new reports and not proper channels when official reports have been written about this problem prior to the reports.

I have checked in here the past two days to see if this topic is being discussed but I did not see any thread started until just now.

This Iraqi prisoner abuse is definitely very disturbing. I would expect some sort of physical admonishment and even some degree of 'torture'. I don't condone such practices, but I can also understand that at the ground level things can get pretty jittery and easily agitated especially if the other party is the war enemy. But to see those pictures of sexual abuse of those men is shocking. And to see the soldiers standing there grinning and posing as if they are before their 'trophy' is just totally revulsive.

I remember a case of a certain politician appearing to be black-eyed while in custody of the local police here, and the whole world shouted at our government for abuse of human rights. Subsequently, it turns out that our ex-Police Chief was responsible for slapping and punching that politician, and was jailed after a short trial. And who then were the main ones to lead such a chorus demanding justice for that politician? The US, and Australia! While I have no love for that politician ..... those who are in this country know he is no angel ..... I can understand that such action of physical abuse against a prisoner is wrong and should be punished.

And that brings me to the Iraqi situation. True, those despicable acts were carried out by some individuals but the manner in which the powers in place in the chain of command responded, is nothing short of unbelievable. Especially Rumsfeld! He coughed and stammered his way through his press conference two days ago, but nothing he said or did was visible as remorse or revulsed. He simply was not forthright with the scheme of things and tried to slip and slide his way out. And this is after he was made aware of such abuses in Iraq more than 4 - 5 months ago, and a report has been given to him two months ago!

I think the Pentagon, right up to the highest level, i.e. Rumsfeld, quietly condoned and approved of such practices. I think this time Bush is better off letting Rumsfeld go, otherwise his ship will definitely sink.

There are more photos being put out by the Washington Post, and these are even more inhumane. You have to be appalled by such images, unless you are a perpetrator yourself, and/or totally lack compassion and human dignity.

6th May, 2004 - 11:53am / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse? History & Civil Business Politics

As I have written elsewhere, most, if not all, Americans are just as shocked and dismayed as anyone else about this. The soldiers involved WILL be prosecuted and disciplined. Most likely, as they have broken multiple articles of military law, as well as the laws of war, they will spend the rest of their lives in Leavenworth, Kansas, making little rocks out of big ones (time at hard labor, in the military prison).

Several people in the chain of command, supervisors, commanders, and above, have already been issued with Letters of Reprimand (LoRs). That might sound rather tame, but you need to understand what it actually means.

The people who have received the LoRs will NOT receive any promotions. The LoR will remain in their records for the rest of their lives. Their careers are finished. They will not get any good assignments, they will not receive any preferential choices, they will not be able to hold any type of sensitive or important positions, and they will not be able to go where they want. They will be stuck in dead-end jobs, shuffling papers, for the rest of their careers. Depending on where they are at, they will be RIFed. For example, a Captain who is not chosen to make Major three times, will be affected by a Reduction in Force (RIF). After the third pass, they are out.

Therefore, the LoR destroys the person, without giving them a courtmartial. If there isn't sufficient evidence to support a courtmartial, this is the means of punishing them. It means that they will be forced out of the military, but won't have any civil criminal record. A courtmartial conviction equals a civil felony conviction.

I can't speak for Rumsfeld. I don't believe that he, or anyone in the Pentagon knew or condoned these actions.

Now, as I wrote on another thread, so far I haven't heard of any real torture. Humiliation, yes. What happened was extremely wrong and bad. The perpetrators must be, and will be punished. But it wasn't torture. It doesn't even approach the level of "pleasurable sexual" torture within the S/M community.

Having read quite a lot about the dark side of humanity, these people didn't suffer. Humiliation doesn't approach the level of what currently happens all over the world, including in some US prisons. When we learn about such things, we try to root them out and destroy them. But the dark side continues to find its way to express itself.

For example, consider a Turkish prison. A minor infraction, fairly recently, would merit 50 strokes of a cane on the prisoners bare feet. After a punishment, it was common for the person to be unable to walk for days or weeks.

How about an Iraqi prison 1 1/2 years ago? A Saudi prison now? A Sudanese prison? (I don't even know if Sudan HAS a prison. Christians there are just murdered and tortured in public, as are criminals.) Zimbabwe? South Africa? China? Vietnam? North Korea?

I am not participating in moral equivalency. I am pointing out that, again, for some reason, a double standard is held against the US. People express outrage against the US for the actions of a VERY few soldiers, yet disregard the official governmental positions of all these other countries. They do this KNOWING that the US is, as a whole, appalled and disgusted by the actions of these few criminals, and that they will be punished.

Take a little trip through the blogosphere. Among the military bloggers, and the conservatives, you will find universal condemnation of these acts. Since I avoid the leftist bloggers after the Fallujah incident, I don't know what they have had to say.

There are bad people everywhere. The difference is in how the culture deals with them. Ours will deal very harshly with these.


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6th May, 2004 - 12:12pm / Post ID: #

Abuse Prisoner Iraqi

QUOTE
I am pointing out that, again, for some reason, a double standard is held against the US. People express outrage against the US for the actions of a VERY few soldiers, yet disregard the official governmental positions of all these other countries.


I think this is just human nature at work. You have probably heard the saying "How the mighty have fallen." Well, I think this is the same thing. It is no different, in my opinion, than how many enjoyed seeing Martha Stewart taken down, or how I feel when someone who speeds by me on the highway is found pulled over by a policeman ahead as I pass them. I often feel like saying, "ha, you got yours sucker!"

QUOTE
I think the Pentagon, right up to the highest level, i.e. Rumsfeld, quietly condoned and approved of such practices.


I am not sure this is true. I think it is more likely that they were trying to keep it quiet. Hoping to prevent a firestorm of controversy, especially during this election year. This administration is notorious for "secrecy."


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Post Date: 6th May, 2004 - 1:08pm / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?
A Friend

Abuse Prisoner Iraqi

The atrocities committed by other countries is NOT a valid argument in defence of US treatment of Iraqi prisoners. The US marched into Iraq preaching very high moral and human values. If you are not any better then you should probably say less.

That said, I sincerely believe that the american people are extremely concerned about the behavior of these soldiers and that you as a people will get to the bottom of it ie; investigations, committees , justice etc.. But the damage has been done and only drastic actions will help the US re-establish its credibility as a just and fair nation. If I was Bush, I would order the bulldozing of the terrible reminder of the Saddam years, the Abu Ghraib prison.

6th May, 2004 - 1:57pm / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse?

QUOTE (MrB @ 6-May 04, 9:08 AM)
The atrocities committed by other countries is NOT a valid argument in defence of US treatment of Iraqi prisoners.

You are absolutely right, and I was only pointing out the double standard.

What I find most distressing about the way the Left in the US, the media, and much of the rest of the world is approaching all of this, is the idea that they can use this to finally get rid of Mr. Rumsfeld. From the very beginning, he and Mr. Ashcroft have appeared to symbolize all that the Left hates about this administration. Never mind the fact that the military had learned about all the charges, and had been taking action on them before CBS or any other media became involved. Many like to make it appear that Rumsfeld and the Pentagon are only reacting to public pressure. That isn't the case.

We will get to the bottom of it. Guilty parties will be punished. Supervisors and commanders will be held accountable. It is already happening. And it is unlikely that such things will happen again.

QUOTE
If I was Bush, I would order the bulldozing of the terrible reminder of the Saddam years, the Abu Ghraib prison.

I doubt that you would find many people who would disagree with you there. It probably wasn't done to begin with because it was convenient to use as it was already available and secure.


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Post Date: 6th May, 2004 - 3:39pm / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

Should Bush have apologized?

ABUSE CONDEMNED: BUT BUSH STOPS SHORT OF APOLOGY
Acknowledging mistakes but stopping short of an apology, President Bush told the Arab world on Wednesday that Americans are appalled by the abuse and deaths of Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. soldiers. He promised that "justice will be delivered."
https://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1%2C1249%2C...61200%2C00.html

6th May, 2004 - 3:42pm / Post ID: #

Iraqi Prisoner Abuse Politics Business Civil & History

No, I don't think he should apologize. Take responsibility? Yes. But he did nothing to apologize for.


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