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Your Membership In Jeopardy - Page 4

Madre, thanks for sharing that story with us. I find interesting that Brigham Young asked this brother to shave off, when himself had a huge beard

Anyhow, I do think it is very important to emphasis that Obedience to the leaders it's okay if what the leaders are asking us is a righteous thing. I cannot follow unrighteousness. Also, we as individuals need to know what we are obeying, after all, we are not machines or robots who just follow instructions. Some time ago I read in the Ensign (I cannot recall who) that says that we need to obtain a testimony about the things the Lord through his leaders reveal to us. Follow or obey for the sake of obey, is not wise, if we believe what we obey then is probably that our obedience will last longer than someone who do not care to know what are they really obeying. You see? I'm not talking about 'counseling' the Lord or ask him any explanations, I'm talking about receiving personal revelation for our own benefit and for the benefit of our souls.

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I wasn't wanting to debate about this, you asked what "we" would do and I told you what I would do. As to your first question I thought I answered that, but I guess the "grounds" that I would use to stopjust because I was asked are: That I feel that I am living close to the Lord in my life right now and that I have the Holy Ghost in my life to guide me....when a new bishop is called I pray about it and ask the Lord to help me sustain him in every way, because I know that my bishop right now is called of Heavenly Father, then I would listen to his counsel. I'm not saying that I wouldn't ask him to explain why he felt that way, but if he felt strongly that I needed to stop coming to a certain website then I would. Now I'm not naive enough to think that bishops cant make mistakes. If for some reason I felt the counsel I was given was unrighteous for some reason than I would definitely pray about it and go to a counselor or stake presidency with my concerns.

Your second "question" is actually a statement, but I'm not sure what your getting at, I told you a story about Ephraim Hanks and the lesson I learned from that story. Are you saying because "things" are different now that we aren't supposed to learn from the lives of the people that have come before us? Isn't that why we read the B of M and the Bible? Those things still pertain to us today.

I guess my definition of blind obedience would be; to do as your told without having a testimony or feeling the spirit. And with having no knowledge of the gospel, listening without the spirit or without personal prayer... Does that make sense?

I hope that I have explained myself and not sounded defensive or anything, I'm not real good at explaining myself on an internet forum, that is why I'm more of a lurker than anything, I only joined in this discussion because of the great impact the Ephraim Hanks story had on me and I wanted to share that, not meaning that any of you should feel the same, it was just another way of looking at things.


LDS... I thought the same thing you did about the beard! But as the story progressed I realized, that was the whole point was that he was testing Ephraims level of obedience.

I hope I answered to the rest of your post already.

Your Membership In Jeopardy Studies Doctrine Mormon

Asking questions is a way to understanding what the person is expressing, it is not a debate.

Yes, sorry about that, I meant to say that in this day and age it seems the Church has taken a much more 'liberal' approach to 'testing' the Saints and it is in the form of being more kind, doing our home/visiting teaching etc. This should have been used as a comment from me not a question.

No, again, we are not attacking you either, but because we cannot see, nor hear you it is necessary to ask point blank questions to understand the 'tone' a user speaks in, do not feel intimidated by it - this is an international forum.

Offtopic but, I am not sure why you made the comment about my avatar - saying it 'freaks you out' could mean anything - again - please explain yourself. I suggest that you please take the time to read the FAQ board so you can learn how to use the forum and more especially that you look at this thread.

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I don't find any mistakes here, and if there are, it is just our opinions and not doctrinal. I am also a returned missionary, I came to love this website. Of course, if there were wrongs here, I have to stay where I should stay, I mean the very basic and essential points of the doctrine. But, I think it's impossible for a Bishop to call this an apostasy or would say my church standing is in jeopardy if he is going to read all the writings here.

But, if for example, the Bishop would tell me to stay away from this website, why not? We were taught to sustain and honor the leaders of this church because they are God's agents or representatives here, what they counsel is God's words as if God talks to us. Well, no need to discuss these things further because you all know this already.

We should not say "I don't fear them anymore" or "I'm not afraid of them anymore", etc. Because Satan reads what we're writing here and if we say that he's going to whisper some more bitter words to us against our leaders. It would be a sign of rebellion or apostasy if we do not refrain from saying this, remember that being an apostate is a step by step process so we should be careful what we say to our church leaders. If we say they can't rule our thoughts and emotions, of course they can't and we are not forced to obey them because we have our free agency that God gave us. But if we truly are humble, we would obey them. If we have questions why, then we should talk to them privately why with politeness and courtesy. How we react or say to them, we say to the Lord.

God said let us be humble

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Don't you have some kind of governance over your own life than to wait for leaders to tell you what you should and shouldn't do? Joseph Smith taught it well about teaching correct principles and then we GOVERN ourselves rather than others govern us. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't listen to your leaders, I'm not saying that at all. I'm focusing on members waiting for someone to tell them what to do. If you're here and you believe you're learning and growing then good, if you need someone to tell you whether you should be here then for me something is wrong.

Your Membership In Jeopardy

For clarification, I didn't say I would always depend on leaders because you're right, we're here to learn and grow. But try to figure out that a Bishop has counsels we need as he determines that we really need it. We should always remember that he is a father of our branch, like us as a father in our family, our children needs some counsels too. God gave us directions our guidance we need and these are:

1) Our personal revelations from Him (inspirations from the Holy Ghost, dreams, etc.)

2) The 4 standard scriptures and other church books.

3) Counsels of our leaders.

4) Patriarchal blessing

We all need these four liahonas in our lives as members as we know it. We can't pull out no. 3 because we say we should govern ourselves, yes that's right, but I repeat, there are some things that we should be corrected. My point is not this thing in general (this website), but it is our obedience to God's servants whether local leaders or General Authorities.

I disagree that one or two of us have said, "I'm not afraid of him anymore", and some things like that because it is as if we say, "God, I am not afraid of Thee anymore". So, we should be careful on that part. If we were the Bishop and then we found out that one of the members has written, "I am not afraid of him anymore", what's your reaction? Would you still trust that member? Don't you say yes, unless if he or she asks your forgiveness. The golden rule said, "Don't do unto others what others don't want to do to you".

Your Membership Jeopardy - Page 4

Let me make it simple ok? Are we saying that every single leader in the Church has been called by God? If that was the case then we wouldnt have the scripture that says that many are called and few are chosen you know what am I saying? So lets not get fanatical. We're commanded to listen to our leaders meaning, consider their counsel and view and then ASK THE LORD THROUGH PRAYER whether that counsel is appropriate for us. Blind obedience (when you just do what you are told just because the person happens to be a leader) is both fanatical, dangerous and not in accordance to the gospel.

Your Membership Jeopardy Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 4

I didn't mean blind obedience, ok? I know that thing. Yes, they are called by God, all of them. When you said, many are called but few are chosen then you really don't understand it. That means if that Bishop becomes worldly or becomes a hypocrite in the end, then that's the meaning of that scripture. Well, you still don't understand me when I said that we don't have to depend always on leaders, but there are somethings they need to counsel on us as if really needed, because what if the Lord tells them to tell it on us?. That doesn't happen always as we know because we should govern ourselves and not to depend on them always.