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Your Membership In Jeopardy - Page 5

Really? You mean every single leader (local or general) has been called by God? Is that what you are saying?

You mean that's your interpretation.

My whole point with that scripture is to point out that leaders (just like us) are MEN who can be victims of temptations and fall into sin. Remember we're counseled not to trust in the arm of the flesh you know what am I saying? Hence our foundation should be CHRIST, the son of God, our Redeemer. The only PERFECT person who ever walked on the face of this Earth.

I agree the leaders can counsel for our benefit, my point is to check with the Lord to confirm or deny the counsel, after all we're receiving counsel from a MAN.

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What you've said REALLY SHOCKED ME, you didn't really understand the points of the doctrine of our church concerning the leaders of our church. I ask, have you've been to seminary, institute, sunday schools, have read all the fine books in our church? Do you read the scripture everyday? If you have not done it or not doing it regularly, then do it now. Or if you have done it, then you do not ponder it or do not understand them at all.

Now, I'm going to repeat the things we've learned from the church:

1) Articles of Faith no. 5

Now that is what members believe. I tell you they are all called because they have been ordained and set apart by the laying on of hands. Have you seen that or not?

2) Now, turn to Alma 13:3,

Do you understand this?

3) Yes, all our leaders are surrounded by temptations but the thing is how they react to it or do they give in? I have been with many Bishops and I have not heared that they have other relationships other than their wives, that they take drugs and alcohol. OH! YOU NEED PERFECT LEADERS? You really, really, can't find it anywhere in the world. But you can find worthy leaders in our church, you know what I mean?

4) You don't understand what you've said that we should not trust in the arm of flesh. God said it and He pointed those persons who do not take the Holy Ghost as their guide, persons who have philosophy contradicting the doctrines of our church, and sometimes parents would say "Oh, you should make your career and forget about mission" or, "Do not marry to the temple yet, you get to have car and a nice mansion first", when in fact, our prophets told us that every young man should go on a mission at the age of 19 and that we must marry even though you're not rich yet.

Now you understand what it meant about do not trust in the arm of flesh? I have given you the examples. Now, you want the Lord to tell you what you should do personally? Ok, I give you a scripture:
D&C 1:38,

(words capitalized). Now, ponder that. Do I have to explain it to you?

5) Mosiah 23:14

. Now you don't trust the Bishops because they're just MEN like us? How fortunate we are that we have these leaders who have set an example to us, they love their wives and children, they don't take drugs, they read the scriptures, etc, etc, etc...

God send his servants to us in this true church because He loves us and want to guide us by the instrumentality of them because they,

(2 Nephi 25:26). Now you say you don't trust them, you didn't know how much manifestation they have from the Holy Spirit in everything they do in the church for our benefit. You ought to repent for that, Brother.

Message Edited...
Persephone: Please use the Quote Tags here. When you do not use these tags source material that is not your own may appear to be yours when it is not. The Source of your Quote should also be provided. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Your Membership In Jeopardy Studies Doctrine Mormon

Are you my Bishop? You surprise me, really. Anyhow just for the sake of answering them let me tell you I did ALL those things, I was born in the Church and I live in "Mormon Land" known as Utah, I held and hold "stake" callings. Is that good enough for you? Are you satisfied with my curriculum?

Have you read at all? Men MUST be called of God. No men "ARE" called of God. Huge difference. Why do you think there is a set order in the Church with regards to leadership? Because every one of them IS called by God and will always make the right choices? Is that what you are saying? Even when the PROPHET gets a new revelation, the Quorum of the Twelve UNANIMOUSLY must approve it FIRST, why do you think that order is set? I could also quote many past and present leaders asking US to PRAY and RECEIVE CONFIRMATION through prayer when we hear the counsel of our leaders. Let me know and I'll be happy to provide them. So I ain't sure exactly what are you so shocked about. Its almost like you're bother at the fact that I said we MUST PRAY before accepting a new revelation.

Wow where do you live? (country). You obviously do not read the news! Just recently a former Bishop here in Utah has been accused of sexual molestation of several children, others of fraud, others of murder, etc. Heck, we even have General Authorities who have been excommunicated. Now I am not saying they are the majority of course but what I am getting at is do not think just because someone happens to be a Bishop or Stake President or a General Authority they are immune to sin! You understand what I am saying?

Where did you get that interpretation from? It's not correct!

Where did I say that I do not trust Bishops? All I say is do not trust in the arm of the flesh, WHICH MEANS do NOT follow it blindly because you think thats what God wants you to do. Can you see that? You mentioned before you do not follow blindly but it seems to me thats your concept. Mine is simple: Listen to your leaders and PRAY FOR CONFIRMATION FROM THE LORD. Explain to me if is there is ANYTHING wrong with that?

Repent? Wow since when are you my Bishop or the Prophet to call me to repentance? I guess your true colors coming out since in the other thread you accused me of judging others and who is the one judging now? Wow, too funny.

Page 5 Jeopardy Membership Your

No, I'm not shocked about praying to get confirmation because I know that, you're judging me too.

Oh, so you mean the Bishop is the only person who could say these things to you? How about your wife, your home teachers, and the others who cares for you?

Yes, there is a set order, that's what we believe, am I right? You have a very nice gospel resume and you're even a stake leader now and then you still don't believe this? How come? Don't you have read these things and heared this in our General Authorities? Now don't you misinterpret what I have said before that I didn't mean blind obedience because our wise Bishops never also do or say or counsel these things to us, they are guided and they know what to do. I didn't also experience a leader telling me what to do when it's far beyond his calling. Leaders I knew never dominate or tell me things what should I do with my church assignments because they believe and trust that mostly members do their own best judgements, wisdom, discretion, and confirmation from God through their prayers concerning their callings. And if they counsel, it all based in the scriptures or the words of our authorities or prophets. They're there to remind us and do repetitive counsels for us. Now don't you also misunderstand me that I don't believe we should pray first for confirmation if that leader extending a calling to you or gave you counsel, I believe in that thing so don't you bother me anymore about this thing because I'm not a robot doing that blind obedience.

What I meant to say is if I have that good feeling of that leader's counsel, then why not do it. If I doubt, then I explain things to him politely and then ask God for confirmation if which of us is correct. I do not mean all leaders make all the right choices, but when they're called-it came from God and after that the Lord will leave them to choose good or evil. So it's a matter of their future doings, if in the end they're found in hypocrisy, then they would taken out of their places. Again, I repeat, they are called of God because the church of Christ is not a house of confusion, but of orderliness and perfect organization and then I again repeat that they would be pulled out if in the end they are found not worthy anymore of their church standing. So, that means they wasted the opportunity that God called them to do. Like King David, he was called, but he transgressed and was moved out of his place. Now, what if I tell you you are not called of God? ? How would you feel? Now, I say to you that you are called of God as a stake leader but of course what God requires of you is how you endure. So, I hope you get my point.

Well, nice to know that news, I was not updated with that and that was so terrible! I really believe the scripture when it says, "Many are called, but few are chosen." Now, my explanation to this is what I've stated above. Now that's the thing we should be aware and careful of, even us who have good reputation in the church could be tempted if we're not careful.

Why did you say it's not correct? I've read it from our books even from the writings and counsels of our General Authorities and that's what the Holy Ghost taught me as I ponder the scriptures? Explain that to me.

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It seems so to me because you have a problem with me saying we shouldnt trust in the arm of the flesh and we should pray for confirmation. And how exactly am I judging you?

First of all I am not a "he", I am a woman. Second you're not my Prophet, Bishop, my husband, my home teacher, heck you don't even know who I am! Therefore when counsel is taken is from someone either close to you or someone in authority. You're neither. You cant go around telling people to repent unless you have been called to do that!

What exactly do you refer to?

There lies your issue. Lack of experience and exposure. It almost like you live inside this crystal ball but let me tell you that these experiences DO exist. So I would suggest not to discuss something you're not familiar with. Just because it didn't happen to YOU, doesnt mean it does NOT happen.

Bother you? Listen if you cannot handle a debate by backing up your statements then withdraw from it you know what am I saying? You ain't forced to reply, I am not interested in your opinion but interested in your sources! (back up information).



Edited: SuzieSu on 4th Apr, 2010 - 6:00pm

Your Membership In Jeopardy

So you're really judging me because you don't believe that I don't believe these things, you also didn't know what I know and am trying to explain and even what's inside my heart and mind and now you insisted that I have problem to what you've said? Oh, come on Sister, you be careful also.

So, you mean I don't have the right to tell these things to people I know? How do you understand the verse that says,

?

Ok, I admit I've made a different approach to you and I'm sorry for that when I told you to repent and I 've asked God to forgive me for that.

There you again judging me, that I lack experience and exposure and that it didn't happen to me. Well, I will also tell you that you don't even know who I am as I do not know you. We're just exchanging letters here and we didn't even met in personal so don't you say to me.

Well, I'm not also interested in your opinions, so we're the same, right? Well, if you always get a bad day because of my letters then you have to withdraw also. Peace, Sister! God bless you.

Message Edited...
Persephone: Please use the Quote Tags here. When you do not use these tags source material that is not your own may appear to be yours when it is not. The Source of your Quote should also be provided. See our Constructive Posting Policy.

Your Membership Jeopardy - Page 5

OK who started this topic? (laugh)
Difficult yet easy.
Difficult because of the fact that you might find yourself in a disciplinary council. Easy, because, I can just never ever blindly follow anybody. Well, let me qualify that, if I am asked to do something and there is no time to discuss it, I will go ahead and do what they asked me and then later have a meeting / discussion etc. If we do have the time, then I will ask a number of questions as to the how and why. If there would not be any reasonable logical explanation, then I would do what my heart dictates. But I would certainly discuss this with my Heavenly Father. (Pray about it)

Sometimes these things can border on using their priesthood in unrighteous dominion. It has upset me greatly in the past when some very prominent BYU scholars were excommunicated because they were asked not to talk about certain topics, like Heavenly Mother etc. Adam-God theory.

This totally clashes with Joseph Smith's statements that the Methodists had creeds and you had to adhere to them or you would lose your membership. And he was happy that he could talk about all things without having to be afraid of such things, yet here we are...

But this question really is realistic. Bruce R.McConkie suggested to edit the Journal of Discourses and take all the irritants out. The problem was that there were already too many copies out there. So they dropped the project. I can see that one day it will be off the shelf.

Your Membership Jeopardy Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 5

Thanks for that, all you've said is right.
She just replied to the explanations or views and opinions and the things I've learned from our church and spiritual experiences, but went out negative because she had different opinions from mine. I came to realize that this isn't good, we became more hotter and lost our moods that's why it's better that we ended up. Well, in regards to what you've said, I don't want to discuss topics about really, really deeper doctrines like Heavenly Mother or Adam-God, etc...

Like what we have discussed many times about leaders that we should sustain and follow their counsels, but there she goes-focused on the bad stories of past leaders and that she said not all of them were called, etc etc. Well, maybe I was right when I defended it, am I right, Brother? This is an international forum, but sometimes we're or others are tempted to go far beyond and then debate.

I could say I am right when I defended to what she said, it's not really deep doctrine. Well, maybe you could tell me if my defending was right or wrong. Because as an LDS, we also can be frank to others so that they may learn. I didn't mean I'm perfect.

Thanks for your feedback and explanation.