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LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays - Page 20

Quasar:

Could it be possible that the reason that they are going through the government is because they are just seeking the right to get married.

Obviously this is a basic definition of marriage, but there is a broader definition as well. I think I would also include in the basic definition that marriage is a way to show devotion and trust in a partner. In the broader definition is all of the benefits that are accorded married couples; tax breaks, estate, medical... Dbackers will tell you that programs are already in place to allow homosexual couples to do these things, but for most that would include hiring a lawyer to do the paperwork. Heterosexual couples get all of these benefits with their $20 marriage license.

Dbackers you always have a way of stating your arguments so well, and you have truly given me something to think about.

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Unfortunately the government does not walk and talk with God.

A basic definition that is thousands of years old here and timeless in God's kingdom.

We are probably the only planet out of trillions of God's creations that are arguing this destructive belief.

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays Studies Doctrine Mormon

I guess the problem that I have is very simple, and yet difficult for many people to see. I will concede that marriage is an institution created and defined by god. It has been the same for thousands of years. Within the last couple centuries we have allowed the government to become involved in the marriage process. It was to our advantage at that point. The government created all kinds of benefits for the married couple. There was much rejoicing and eating of breakfast cereals.

However, now that it is a binding contract that is regulated by the government it is not within the governments purview to deny it to someone based solely on their sexual preference. I challenge anyone to show me where in the constitution it states that just because someone is gay means that they deserve less of a right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Can any of you think of another instance in which it is constitutionally okay for the government to deny a particular group of people the ability to do something that everyone else can do?

I have thought about your comments Dbackers, and while very interesting and a little doomsdayish, I just can't believe that your examples are indicative of a precedence to regulate the LDS church's ability to determine who it will seal. It is a basic doctrinal belief of the LDS church that marriage is between a man and a woman. It is not a basic doctrinal belief of the Catholic church that homosexuals should not adopt. It is just a belief held by a specific diocese, and their decision to discontinue performing adoptions will not cause a radical change to the way in which they worship.

What is interesting is that we are creating a precedence by creating a law based soley on a moral value. Sure there are other moral laws on the books like though shalt not kill, or steal, but breaking those laws inhibits the victims freedoms. By creating this precedence we may be opening the door for future generations to vote on laws that might very well inhibit our rights as LDS members. This is the only way in which I can see Dbackers scenario coming into play, and the fault will rest with those who created the precedence.

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bobnbrittw

This would fall under the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment.

And you are correct that this is the best argument for allowing homosexual marriages.

But I still contend that Homosexuals are protected under this amendment. The law defines marriage as a union between a man and a woman. A man regardless of his sexual orientation can marry a woman, and a Woman, again regardless of sexual orientation, can marry a man. Homosexuals have the exact same right to marry a member of the opposite sex as heterosexuals. Conversely I as a Heterosexual cannot marry a man regardless of my sexual orientation or desires. Thus we are equally protected, and therefore the 14th Amendment does not apply.

Based on this argument it cannot be said that anyone is denying "a particular group of people the ability to do something that everyone else can do?" as you say.

I would contend that doctrinally they teach that children are best raised by a man and a woman, and forcing them to adopt to a homosexual couple decreases their rights as an institution.

We are in the Last Days and Doomsday is not to far off

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dbackers:

I think the problem in most states is that marriage is not defined between a man and a woman but defined as a contract between two people. In these cases, as it is in California, the Proposition or Amendment, was created to further define it. In California the Supreme Court, those meant to interpret law, decided that the definition was vague enough to allow homosexual marriage.

I can understand your stance that a homosexual still has the right to enter into a heterosexual marriage. I respectfully disagree with the thought process involved. I believe that it still singles out a group of people to receive less of an ability to choose than another group. We will probably never see eye to eye on this.

I don't believe this is doctrinal, so much as it is a belief. I also don't know why it would be a right as an institution for them to perform adoptions. I believe it would be more of a service to a community, kind of like a food bank. The way in which they worship will not be affected if they can't do it. Conversely the way in which the LDS church worships would be directly affected if it were to be forced to perform gay marriage.

LDS Perspective: Gay Marriage - Mormon Gays

I don't think people fully understand how dangerous homosexuality is to society. Media would have everyone believe that it is harmless. That is not true. Sexual sins are perhaps the most destructive sins. Like any other sin it creates darkness in an individual and eventually takes over and turns the individual evil. Without repentance and abstaining from such actions the individual can become full of darkness just like satans minions.

This paragraph is not presented as fact yet. It is just a subject that is worthy of study:

I think that history is lopsided about the Nazi party. There are many historians that contest that the brown shirts, SS, the Hitler youth leaders, and Hitler and company themselves were Homosexuals. The persecution of homosexuals were mostly the feminine type which were despised by the masculine worshipping Nazis. They were preferred by the Nazis because of their instinctive brutality. The Nazis were a secret organization (secret combination). I feel as though modern day homosexual groups fall in the category of secret combinations.

In the bible the murderous Cain was introduced to homosexuality. Sodom and Gomorrah were at least reported to be a murderous raping lot who desired to "know" the angels. There are many other stories and societies that have similar stories on homosexuality and the destructive activities that they are involved in.

If you believe that groups like NAMBLA should be protected under the constitution for their rights that having sex with 10 year old boys is a religious and spiritual experience, then there might be something wrong with the way you view things.

Never mind what God does to a society that is involved with such practices. I have to live in this society to and would rather not feel the rath of God for such activities or be regarded in the next life as a supporter of them.

I believe that homosexuality as an institution is a secret combination. They are funded, they have groups and meetings that are designed to destroy and take from the productive and life promoting body of society with manipulation and destruction of the moral fabric that makes up a successful civilization.
I think people should get away from the notion that everything that we see on TV is right and that perhaps history is fed to us by the very arm of flesh that deceives an misleads us into that abyss of hell.

Edited: Quasar on 10th Nov, 2008 - 7:02pm

LDS Perspective Gay Marriage Mormon Gays - Page 20

I also don't think people quite understand how dangerous it is as a society to limit an individuals free agency. Scriptually speaking the Sadducees and the Pharisees were so enamoured with the belief that they were correct all of the time that they brought about the crucifiction of Christ.

I resent the implication that because I support a persons free-agency, and ability to choose their own salvation or damnation, I am suddenly a pedophile that believes child rape is protected under the constitution. The statement shows a bigoted undercurrent that is becoming more and more common in the church.

For a people that pride ourselves on our history as a persecuted people we sure seem quick to reciprocate when we are no longer the subject of scrutiny.

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No, I was ranting. I don't think you support such a thing. You have said nothing to indicate this. It was an open statement not directed towards you but to a discussion as a whole that many people are involved with. I should have said one instead of you. It was more directed at the homosexual community not to you. I understand this mis-communication.

So let me make an apology on word usage. I should have used one instead of you.

I call it survival. This is the second time that you have implied bigotry on my part. So be it, it has little affect on me, because I care little what someone like you thinks. Just being honest.

I think that one should follow his heart and if his/her heart presses the individual to defile the kingdom of God's rules then the test is over for them if they don't stop.

Perhaps one should do some soul searching and find out what side they are on.

I believe that the church welcomes sinners of all caliber. You mistake me for speaking for everyone here (I don't). I don't speak for the church either and I probably never will. I have just stated my personal opinion that should be separated from others because I am an individual. You shouldn't put the church in a category of bigotry because of my opinions. How bigoted of you. You are simply intolerant of my beliefs and the beliefs of many others. You are bigoted to the life style of many church members and none members. Perhaps we will all seperate from eachother one day.

Now that you brought me into it personally you have to understand my background. I have been there and done that. I have gone through most of the repentance process that has brought me to hell it seams. I fully understand that the misuse of free agency leads to consequences (homosexual or not). Consequences we can't pay. The only one that was there when I begged was the only one that could take it away. I have chosen my allegiance in accordance. The lack of understanding of God's laws seams to be run abound in the church as well. Perhaps you are not up to the challenge.

Our Father's house has been desecrated and mocked by those you defend. Our Brother and Sisters will be persecuted by the same. Are you a Warrior in our Father's army, or are you the worlds' voice? Who is persecuted? You persecute the beliefs that you claim to value.

I don't hate Homosexuals I just have a lack of sensitivity towards them.

You should take some alone time and get your loyalties straight.

The Lord is the most courageous fighter of us all. Ask him and if it differs from the seers/prophets that he has chosen then you are listening to wrong spirit.

Edited: Quasar on 11th Nov, 2008 - 7:10am