Kynorath, that's a great analogy about divorce. It's the Blood-Stained banner that was the flag that flew over plantations, for most of the war's duration. So it's not a flag of a foreign nation, it's a flag of a culture - if someone moves down here, or up here, and they can't handle that piece of our culture then they frankly have no business being here. I don't care if you're white, black, or green - this is our land and if you want to change it then you're not welcome. This is fundamentally no different than if half of China moved here and then voted to get rid of the US flag and replace it with a hammer and sickle. After all, the US flag is divisive - we're not all from here, right?
A real alternative to taking down banners and statues would be to raise some next to them, dedicated to other peoples. That's what peeves me so much about this debate. That's why I don't think they're being honest about their intentions, because they could easy build up things to represent other people instead of tearing down things that represent us.
And for the record, I can understand the counter points and I don't hold a grudge against people in the thread with a differing opinion, I just don't think a lot of people realize where this particular rabbit hole ends. You don't have to like the flag, the south, or the confederacy to realize that these same arguments against the aforementioned can and will be lobbied against Americana.
"In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them; conceal your dispositions, and you will be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Well one point that I see that you are wrong. The confederacy left the union of states to form their own nation and then fought brother against brother father against father to remain their own separate country when the Union invaded them in what was the civil war. The battle flag that so many in the south take as a symbol of the confedercy was never a flag of the United States therefore it was a flag of a foreign nation and has no place in any current state. I know many people who have moved down to the south and they will not stand for the flag as it is not a representation of them or the United states. With you saying they are therefore unwelcome down there and should leave tells me that you and many like you are not very welcoming of change and are still sore that you lost. Knowing that this was over 150 years ago you would think people would start to change but apparently this is not happening and this is a problem here in the States.
You see most Americans are welcoming to diversity and change as America was always the melting pot of the world. If the people of the south can not accept this and some changes then they are the ones that are keeping many people from coming together as brothers to walk arm and arm together to see that the right stuff is happening. To deny others with a different opinion than yours the right to have that opinion is wrong and I hope that the people who feel this way in the South learn to be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem.
International Level: International Guru / Political Participation: 1195 100%
Rabve, the culture that flew the battle flag originally is dead, as dead as a doornail. For almost a hundred years, it flew nowhere. The south today has jack all to do with the confederacy.
The culture that revived the battle flag and adopted it for its own is the same cultural movement that rose up to protest the movement best represented by Martin Luther King Jr.
In that context, I hope you'll forgive me if I find this a dubious argument.
Edited: daishain on 11th Nov, 2017 - 1:21am
Replying to: KNtoran I had something typed up but I decided against posting it, because I think you're a well meaning guy - if hopelessly wrong, in my opinion. Suffice it to say that it is not us who are the problem, but the people who think that it is their right and duty to enforce total cultural and ideological homogeneity. Again, I doubt you'd smile and thank those hundreds of millions of Chinese men and women for giving you "Change", in my hypothetical scenario. Your friends, while probably decent people, are not my countrymen and are not good transplants if they can't respect the people whose land they moved to. All of the talk about "Unity" and "Change" means nothing to me when it coincides with destroying the physical manifestations of my people, and our culture. Those statues and flags are a proxy for us, pure and simple. I have no duty to love an empire that hates me and mine, and then calls it "Unity". And it is hate, otherwise you wouldn't see southerners being the only group that it's OK to mock and ridicule and you wouldn't see people demanding that only we change while everyone else is encouraged to embrace themselves.
Replying to: Daishain excuse me for finding your remarks dubious as well. You've presented nothing but a dishonest argument. The Klan used the American flag extensively too. The vast majority of slave ships flew an American flag. Most of first dozen presidents owned slaves. So I guess that means you have got to give up the constitution, old glory, and start tearing down every monument in D.C. - it's all anti-civil rights! Give me a break. Remember when the Polish lost two wars and then were annexed by the Russian, Prussian, and Austro-Hungarian empires? It was more than a century before they became a nation-state again. Losing a war doesn't erase your ethnicity, nor does it erase your culture. If it did then the Jews definitely aren't a people, after millennia of exodus. What about the Coptic people of Egypt? They don't have their own state - do they exist? The Kurds?
You miss understand me. I am talking only of a battle flag here. I wholly support the statues and monuments of the brave men who fought for a belief that they believed in staying where they were erected at and dedicated at for that is part of our combined history. I am talking only about a battle flag that many to this day use as a symbol of hate and oppression. I have no issue of the people of the south that keep this flag in their homes and in their personnal possession for that is their right. Just like I do not support any nations people coming over to the States and trying to get rid of any monuments or statues of American people. This includes the American flag. I will pick up arms and fight against anyone who wishes to get rid of our main symbol of freedom and I will fight against anyone who wants to take those freedoms away from us. I Just do not agree with the "Confederate" flag that so many hide behind and demand that "The south rise again" slogans nor those that use this symbol to further try to divide this great nation again. There are a lot of good people through out this great nation in all corners of this great nation and I feel we can get past this if people would stop the narrow thinking that they are doing. Can the statues stay? Yes. Can the monuments stay? Yes. Can the battle flag stay? NO. That is all I am saying.
International Level: International Guru / Political Participation: 1195 100%
Replying to: KNtoran I think I understand your position a lot better, now that you have explained further in detail. The issue I have is that any compromise that includes removing the flag, as we have already seen, is not done in good faith. The second the flags were taken down some people took that to be a blank check to go: form vigilante mobs to tear down statues, attack peoples' homes for flying the flag, desecrating graves, and assault people in the streets for wearing memorabilia with the flag on it.
Therefore, it is an entirely unworkable solution to remove the flag, and something that I will oppose with my life if I have to. I've mentioned an alternative compromise, that wouldn't gaslight socialists and agitators into thinking that they can do the aforementioned crimes. That is the only compromise that I will stand by. With respect, I don't feel any sense of unity with people in other parts of the country that want to sacrifice me and my culture hoping that it will pacify all of the crazy people in the streets rioting every other week. It won't. That's not to say that people in the rest of the country are all bad people, or that I hate them - but I am not cool with being considered the sacrificial lamb. Not one step back.
A pause from Confederate Flag to share philosophy from yesteryear:
Today is: 12th December (GMT), in history on the 12th of December, 1959 AD the following event happened:
UN Committee on Peaceful Use of Outer Space is established