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Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed - Page 6

I'm looking for source material about this not assumptions or theories. The magnitude of this Topic warrants serious analysis.

You believe that is justified? How many times does a child need to be abused in the most cruel way in order to prove how evil a person can be? Is it more important to prove evil or protect innocence? Raping them, burning them, locking them in basements without food for one year, two years, a decade, twenty four years? Is that enough time to "prove" they are evil? We are talking about God here, he does not need to "prove" anything to anyone, plus just one minute of abuse is sufficient for condemnation let alone decades.

In the above quote the words can be used for multiple cases, simply just teaching children to do the wrong thing has dire consequences let alone inflicting evil upon them.

You need to spend more time in this Board: Source 8 and look through the cases there - read some of the titles - learn about the backgrounds of people in the most heinous of circumstances so that you can broaden your perspective of what is out there, maybe right next door.

That was mentioned earlier in the Thread, that just leads to speculation again. How is it you can accept to undergo something for years when you do not know what it entails when you are essentially in an "innocent" state. That is like asking a five year old to go serve in a part of Afghanistan where he will be captured and tortured.

Rather off topic, but...
Check my edit of your Post. Thanks for understanding.

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

JB, I honestly respect you. I am always amazed at your insight on every topic.

I was a paralegal secretary for a Public Defender's office for a few years when I was younger, we defended first degree murder; I'm pretty sure in every case there was some type of sick sexual abuse, children and adults, involved...so I have had to learn about some of the disgusting evilness amongst us. However, I have never personally experienced any type of abuse.

But I would like partake in the discussion, anyways...if you don't mind.

I want to research this topic further...using scripture...and other church references. I will provide what I learn with scriptural back-ups, etc., when I respond next...okay...please bear with me...I hope to find some answers for you and for me.

Rather off topic, but...
But first, I want to ask you, do you think that we were all perfect before entering our second estate (mortality, gaining our bodies)?

Message Edited...
Persephone: Please use the Offtopic Tags so that the Thread maintains the SAME subject matter and does not develop into another Topic. See Constructive Posting Policy.

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed Studies Doctrine Mormon

I do not think that there is a purpose. I am not sure why their has to be. Evil happens and there is no purpose to it. Evil destroys it does not create, so why is there a purpose?
I think that it is a condition to mortality, and to agency. We all have agency, and we all can choose evil or good. I think that is accepted in this thread. I think what I take is that when evil happens God is able to create good or redemptive acts from it. It is not the evil act itself that has purpose but the redemptive good that God can create from it. Thus for me I do not see God with the power to control our agency. He cannot make us do what we do not want to do. (remember we are co-eternal with him as intelligences meaning we had some basic existence which was free agency independent of God). But God in his wisdom can create goodness out of our evil acts. This is how I get out of this problem for the most part.

God told Adam and eve that their would be evil, struggles, and pain, but that it would be for thy good. That good would be the redemptive act or the new creation that John speaks of that will come from pain and evil. That good is the redemptive healing power of Christ, not the evil act itself. So I think we may need to separate the evil with the good that God creates from it. For me God has nothing to do with the evil act, but rather all to do with the redemption that comes out of it. Evil is a condition and reality of agency and mortality.

Their is a huge theological problem that you have with God allowing, or designing evil acts to happen in the world. You then have to question the morality of God. If one has the power to stop a rape, and does not, then is he morally responsible? there is a case of gang rape in the US now that is legally going to answer this question, in charging those who saw it happen and did nothing.

Furthermore you are sounding more like a Calvinist then LDS. That evil exists just so that God can prove his righteousness and through this selects, chooses, or proves who is saved. Again this then questions the morality of god to allow such evil to happen in order to prove a point. To me this is more traditional Satan then God who is showing God how bad man is by pushing them to do evil.

Theologically this is nothing more then "The problem of Evil". This is a real theological problem that theologians have been struggling with for some time. I believe we do not have a answer for it, but we LDS have the best attempt for an answer. Do a google search on this if you want to know more about it.

Message Edited...
Edited by LDS_forever: I fixed your quote tags.

Page 6 Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

Kay let me re-phrase that. I think God allows abuse so that man can PROVE how evil they are.

How I stated it before does sound kind of Satanish....sorry.

Of course he allows abuse...it's happening, and he could stop it, and in some cases, he intervenes. Elizabeth Smart is a great example! I actually prayed to God, and asked him first to bring her back safely, and then after a while when that didn't happen I wondered why all our prayers were not being answered....then boom, she was home, all of Utah rejoiced; we ran out of our homes and literally hugged eachother and thanked God, it was miraculous!

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

Not sure why you are saying this, please keep to the Topic and do not make this about respect or let it become personal.

You do not have to of been personally abused to find out an answer to why it happens. Earlier you were questioning the methodology behind it and I referred you to the Law & Order / Heinous Crimes Board. Additionally, I think all those participating in this Thread should go through the pages there and read the shocking crimes done by man, especially towards Children. Also notice those who commit these crimes.

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I think you made a similar argument earlier or in another Thread, but I do not see that as Doctrinal, just personal opinion. As far as I know everything that happens has a purpose, a reason and so forth. I have never read anywhere that:

If you have source material to show that is true I am open to discover it.

This actually is the opposite to what you said earlier, so then evil does have a purpose. It still does not answer my original question though, we are talking about children here.

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Rather off topic, but...
Participation is fine, with sources, also please note my earlier edit to your Post about those little dots.

Note: My question is a difficult one, if there were some easy answer I would have provided my thoughts on it already. Due to many not knowing the real answer there is a very strong urge to go off on tangents. Focusing on many things but NOT actually answering my question(s). I strongly insist that this Thread be kept to the actual Topic in my first Post. If you wish to go into something else start a new Thread or check to see if we do not have it already.

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed

Name: Velska

Comments: There seem to be one question you're asking: Why it happens; is it a punishment or a sacrifice (or what)?

The short answer is, that Jesus himself told his disciples that the man born blind had not sinned, neither his parents, but that the glory of God would be shown. No, it is not a punishment.

As for sacrifice, the children are not certainly sacrificing themselves.

But if you look at scriptures like Alma 14, you get to the point. It's been mentioned in this discussion. Because we have free will, we need to be allowed to be as evil as we wish. Then we must confess in the end that we have wilfully disobeyed our own conscience.

But to wrap things up; it would be horrifying to think about all that suffering without any redemption. Read Alma 7, or D&C 62:1 where it becomes clear that the Savior is able to sustain us in our hours of darkest despair. He was there (see also D&C 122). That comfort is available to anyone.

In the Preach My Gospel manual there is a simple statement that says that Christ's Atonement reconciles everything that is not fair about this mortality. Everything.

I have no idea how it will happen. Perhaps when we through his grace become more like him we will be less likely to condemn other people? Or even better, we are more likely to offer real comfort to anyone in need?

I guess the full answer will have to wait for the Judgment
Day.

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed - Page 6

I notice most people like to reference what Jesus said concerning those who are born with an aliment. I do not know why, since being born blind, with a disease and so forth is NOT the same as being tortured, raped, abused and so forth everyday as a child. Is every blind child tortured and raped? Come on, let us separate the two.

Next, I also notice that in trying to answer the reason for children who are raped, abused and killed people attempt to answer by saying it will be better in the next life and so forth, but in the end they are really saying they do not know. They try to give statements to pacify the original question, but in effect are NOT answering the question. That is not what is being asked.

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 6

My two cents into this discussion. In my humble opinion, it seems like suffering is part of our "calling" and to a certain extent also includes to suffer in behalf of the Savior:

Does it include little children? I don't know but it creates a sense that suffering is a needed part in our lives. It seems also that the way we see suffering may not be the same as the Lord's:

I am not completely satisfied with the answer but wanted to share these scriptures that give a little more light about suffering.

Edited: ChicaSUD on 13th Nov, 2009 - 3:24am