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Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed - Page 2

I believe it was said that in this inncident they were martyrs as a testament against those who were burning them, I understand that. What my main concern here is a child born into, subject to rape, and torture for years and then growing into an abuser and continuing the cycle. I cannot imagine anyone accepting this assignment:

You will be born into a family where the most heinous crimes will be done to you on a daily basis for years. Eventually one day because you will not know much better or because you have become psychology numb from reasoning you will seek out others to torture in like manner.

Can you picture anything that happened to you let's say ten years ago? Can you account for each day? Just consider those ten years being locked up, and tortured every day - day after day. This is what I'm talking about.

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

The reason I feel this is an extension of the problem of evil is simply because the problem of evil is how can a just and moral God allow bad things to happen? I think you are asking the same thing (if I understand you correctly) by saying how can God allow such things to happen to a child. To me this is an extension to the same question, and I am not sure if I have found an answer that fully satisfies me. Simply because if no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God, then God allowing a sin to happen with the power to stop it is in some way immoral. Just if I have the power to stop a person from harming a child and do not, I am in some way immoral andy by justice guilty to some degree.

Again its a question of morality on god's part. The way I personally get around it is that God does not have the power to stop free agency. He is limited in his power. I think this can be shown in modern scripture and in the King Follet Discourse. So it may not be that God will not intervene but cannot, thus we are at the mercy of free agency.( I understand this does not solve the problem completely.)
Now with that said I feel that despite God's inability to act in this way, he does have the power to redeem us and others, and to heal. He can take a bad thing and make it whole. I am not sure if this answers the question but it is a start for me.

I concur.
Perhaps we do not accept assignments as far as life goes. Simply as you say that we cannot agree to something in mortality when we do not even know what that is in the pre-existence. However perhaps we agree to family. in the pre-existence we knew each other and we could agree on who we will live with and be sealed too. Perhaps that is all we agreed too, thus in many ways we are at the mercy of what they do in mortality. We placed faith and trust in family to do the right thing and to put us in a position of safety in this life. Thus our circumstances of birth are not what we really agreed to, other then to who we will be born or raised by. (this puts more meaning into temple work) Thus the atonement then is not only individual but a communal or family forgiveness and working of salvation.

Just some thoughts

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed Studies Doctrine Mormon

Well, maybe this was part of Lucifer's argument in the pre-existence to get a third to not follow the plan. I could see him saying something like if you go to the earth you will be tortured, raped, etc. Even if we could not understand what that meant fully maybe Lucifer was intelligent enough and charismatic enough to paint a good enough picture to scare the third. The ironic thing is this, we understand that they are suffering even more now! Thus we have to see if suffering isn't natural part of universal life, a necessary part. However the question comes - how is suffering chosen though? Who gets what kind of suffering and will we all eventually have to taste terrible suffering? Or is it that some can pass the test living a life without suffering.

As for what God can or cannot do I have had very heavy Discussions about that here: Source 8 if you wish to continue down that path.

Page 2 Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

I am not sure how pain and suffering is decided. Personally I think much of it is random, and based on the free agency of others. If someone does something by his free agency to hurt me then most likely I will suffer. I am not too sure if God decides that or not.

Killed and Abused Raped Children - Mormons

This is a really interesting topic, and one that is not easily solved. For children to suffer at the hands of their own parents, or to be abducted and suffer these horrible crimes, is a crime in itself.

It's like the question the disciples asked, when they came upon the man who was blind from birth: Who sinned? This man or his parents? The scripture says

I know that doesn't answer the question of torture or abuse, but it is a point about agreeing to be born into a certain situation in the pre-existence.

How does children suffering manifest the works of God? Are these children guaranteed a place at the Father's side?

I can't imagine the situation. Does one child pulling himself out of a situation of abuse and going on to lead an exemplary life manifest the works of God?

This is one of the most painful subjects of them all, when we have experienced the sweetness and innocence of our own children. How can anyone violate that trust?

Mormons - When Children Are Raped, Abused & Killed

Isiah53

I can't accept that.

But back to children and suffering. At what point is suffering beneficial to a person and when does it become excessive? With our imperfect knowledge can we know where this line is?

Suffering I believe is very temporary (though it does not seem so at the time) and not a part of our life in the eternities. But, because I have not experienced the suffering mentioned here, I cannot understand the difficulties that come with that.

I do not necessarily believe we chose exactly where we would be in life, or our parents, but I think we were informed that this life might be extremely difficult. I would not be surprised if there was some random aspect to it all. Suffering that is not deserved (as is the case in children) is hard for me to understand, but I can grasp the need for a God that does not intervene at every level of our lives. I think God willingly chooses not to intervene because of a greater (if not perfect) knowledge of the laws of suffering then we have in this life.

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed - Page 2

This is something I honestly wonder about when I hear about these missing children. They end up dead or on porn films, tortured and whatever else these very sick people do to them. Why doesn't Heavenly Father help them, why let them suffer for so long? Those children with the man in Austria that raped his own daughter for so many years is a perfect eample here.

Mormons - Children Raped Abused & Killed Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

In narrowing this subject down my concern may be more focused on the 'amount' and 'length' of suffering. We are limited by our concept of space and time so probably we see this period as long and laborious, maybe it is just a second of Heavenly time, but at the same time - it is more about how you feel more than what it is. In this thinking... Suffering abuse for years in the most evil manner is what I am concerned about. If a child is taken and killed well that is the end of that, they are now in a better place, but the prolonged abuse, why does the child 'get' that? Jen brought up a good example of the Austrian monster.