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Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 5

Also I have this question. ZINA HUNTINGTON JACOBS was single when the Prophet Joseph asked to marry him, she said no and marry Bro. Jacobs. BUt within months, Joseph Smith told her about the Angel Visitation and stuff and then she chose to marry him. After Joseph Smith died, she married Brigham Young in 1844, two years later her husband was sent to a mission to England. Now my question is what was the need for this sister to get married to Brigham Young when she was already sealed to Joseph Smith?

Another case is Sis. PRESENDIA HUNTINGTON BUELL, who was also married and sealed to the Prophet Joseph on December 11, 1841. After Joseph Smith's death in 1844, Presendia married Heber C. Kimball.  She continued to live with her first husband, Norman, until May 1846.

Can anyone give me an explanation about this? If these sister were already sealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith what was the need for them to become 'wives' of Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball???

Also,  the information I'm researching is coming from the LDS official web site of genealogy : https://www.familysearch.org

In that same web site there is a lot of information. In the Joseph Smith pedigree they put Eliza R. Snow as one of the wives of Joseph who got married on June 29th 1842 and then married Brigham Young on june 29th 1849. I'm really lost in the fact to understand why a sister should be married when she was previously sealed to the Prophet Joseph in the first place?. Also is listed the names of RHODA RICHARDS who was also married to the Prophet Smith and then when he died  marry the Prophet Brigham Young, SOPHRONIA GRAY FROST in the same situation. I didnt went through ALL the spouses because there were lots of them but the ones I mentioned are the ones that I found. You can notice that these sisters were not divorced from their husbands and that's why they marry other brothers. First of all, those brothers were ALREADY married and these sisters were already SEALED.

I would like also to add another thread about Brigham Young divorce from some sisters he got married.

I found this from the Journal of Discourses and it shows a strong sermon by Brigham Young about Plural Marriage and the sisters complains at that time:

"I want all the people to say what they will do, and I know that God wishes all His servants, all His faithful sons and daughters, the men and the women that inhabit this city, to repent of their wickedness, or we will cut them off. ...

   "There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world.

   "I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but is to save them, not to destroy them. ...

   "I do know that there are sins committed, of such a nature that if the people did understand the doctrine of salvation, they would tremble because of their situation. And furthermore, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins.

   "It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day;...There are sins that can be atoned for...by the blood of the man. That is the reason why men talk to you as they do from this stand; they understand the doctrine and throw out a few words about it. You have been taught that doctrine, but you do not understand it. ...

   "Now for my proposition; it is more particularly for my sisters, as it is frequently happening that women say they are unhappy. Men will say, 'My wife, though a most excellent woman, has not seen a happy day since I took my second wife;' 'No, not a happy day for a year,' says one; and another has not seen a happy day for five years. It is said that women are tied down and abused: that they are misused and have not the liberty they Ought to have; that many of them are wading through a perfect flood of tears, because of the conduct of some men, together with their own folly.

   "I wish my own women to understand that what I am going to say is for them as well as others, and I want those who are here to tell their sisters, yes, all the women of this community, and then write it back to the States, and do as you please with it. I am going to give you from this time to the 6th day of October next, for reflection, that you may determine whether you wish to stay with your husbands or not, and then I am going to set every woman at liberty and say to them, Now go your way, my women with the rest, go your way. And my wives have got to do one of two things; either round up their shoulders to endure the afflictions of this world, and live their religion, or they may leave, for I will not have them about me. I will go into heaven alone, rather than have scratching and fighting around me. I will set all at liberty. 'What, first wife too?' Yes, I will liberate you all.

"I know what my women will say; they will say, 'You can have as many women as you please, Brigham.' But I want to go somewhere and do something to get rid of the whiners; I do not want them to receive a part of the truth and spurn the rest out of doors.

   "I wish my women, and brother Kimball's and brother Grant's to leave, and every woman in this Territory, or else say in their hearts that they will embrace the Gospel-the whole of it. Tell the Gentiles that I will free every woman in this Territory at our next Conference. 'What, the first wife too?' Yes, there shall not be one held in bondage, all shall be set free. And then let the father be the head of the family, the master of his own household; and let him treat them as an angel would treat them; and let the wives and the children say amen to what he says, and be subject to his dictates, instead of their dictating the man, instead of their trying to govern him.

   "No doubt some are thinking, 'I wish brother Brigham would say what would become of the children.' I will tell you what my feelings are; I will let my wives take the children, and I have property enough to support them, and can educate them, and then give them a good fortune, and I can take a fresh start.

   "I do not desire to keep a particle of my property, except enough to protect me from a state of nudity. And I would say, wives you are welcome to the children, only do not teach them iniquity; for if you do, I will send an Elder, or come myself, to teach them the Gospel. You teach them life and salvation, or I will send Elders to instruct them.

   "Let every man thus treat his wives, keeping raiment enough to clothe his body; and say to your wives, 'Take all that I have and be set at liberty; but if you stay with me you shall comply with the law of God, and that too without any murmuring and whining. You must fulfil the law of God in every respect, and round up your shoulders to walk up to the mark without any grunting.'

  "Now recollect that two weeks from to morrow I am going to set you at liberty. But the first wife will say, 'It is hard, for I have lived with my husband twenty years, or thirty, and have raised a family of children for him, and it is a great trial to me for him to have more women;' then I say it is time that you gave him up to other women who will bear children. If my wife had borne me all the children that she ever would bare, the celestial law would teach me to take young women that would have children. ...

   "This is the reason why the doctrine of plurality of wives was revealed, that the noble spirits which are waiting for tabernacles might be brought forth. ...

   "Sisters, I am not joking, I do not throw out my proposition to banter your feelings, to see whether you will leave your husbands, all or any of you. But I do know that there is no cessation to the everlasting whining of many of the women in this Territory; I am satisfied that this is the case. ... " 'But,' says one, 'I want to have my paradise now.' And says another, 'I did think I should be in paradise if I was sealed to brother Brigham, and I thought I should be happy when I became his wife, or brother Heber's. I loved you so much, that I thought I was going to have a heaven right off, right here on the spot.'

   "What a curious doctrine it is, that we are preparing to enjoy! The only heaven for you is that which you make yourselves. My heaven is here-[laying his hand upon his heart]. I carry it with me. When do I expect it in its perfection? When I come up in the resurrection; then I shall have it, and not till then. ...

   "But the women come and say, 'Really brother John, and brother William, I thought you were going to make a heaven for me,' and they get into trouble because a heaven is not made for them by the men, even though agency is upon women as well as upon men. True there is a curse upon the woman that is not upon the man, namely, that 'her whole affections shall be towards her husband,' and what is the next? 'He shall rule over you.'

   "But how is it now? Your desire is to your husband, but you strive to rule over him, whereas the man should rule over you.

   "Some may ask whether that is the case with me; go to my house and live, and then you will learn that I am very kind, but know how to rule. ...

   "Prepare yourselves for two weeks from to morrow; and I will tell you now, that if you will tarry with your husbands, after I have set you free, you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that  I will not hear any more of this whining." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, 1856, pp. 55-57).

Also I was found this other quote from Brigham Young:

"But there was a way in which a woman could leave a man lawfully - when a woman becomes alienated in her feeling and affections from her husband, it is his duty to give her a bill and set her free - it would be fornication for a man to cohabit with his wife after she had thus become alienated from him...Also, there was another way in which a woman could leave a man - if the woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up. There is no bill of divorce required, in [this] case it is right in the sight of God."
(- Brigham Young, from Conference Reports, 8 Oct. 1861, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, with acknowledgement to Divorce Among Mormon Polygamists, Eugene E. Campbell and Bruce L. Campbell, The New Mormon History, Signature Books 1992.)

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Well LDS, looks like you have ben doing some research. In reading it seems that the women's liberation movement did not seem to be underway yet I guess the concept of a woman's 'place' in society is very different from now. This one I am sure would rattle a few feathers:
[quote]...you must bow down to it, and submit yourselves to the celestial law. You may go where you please, after two weeks from to-morrow; but, remember, that  I will not hear any more of this whining[/quote]

We are berely over the point of Joseph's sealings to married women when already you have this:
[quote]if the woman preferred a man higher in authority and he is willing to take her and her husband gives her up. There is no bill of divorce required, in [this] case it is right in the sight of God[/quote]
Which has a comical aspect to it in that it means the local GA could visit and if my wife took a fancy to him then we would not need to get divorced.

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon

remember the compitition between the girls would be fierce. and so the guy would be on the offensive. but then they could gang up on him and take control more so than the one would.  and remember the earth was created in 7 days so maybe thats why 7 wives.  one days for each creation peroid.  you could even name them after the days of the creation.

Page 5 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Hi,

LDS forever I doubt the purpose was wife swapping. I am not sure D.&C. 132 allows for polyandry. I doubt the LDS see much of a problem with it as long as the marriages were hypothetical & did not compete with the exiting marriage.

I have no problem with Todd Comptom pointing out there are some suggestions of sexuality in the marriages. The time I have problem with him is when he doesn't prove his case. Do you have a diary or journal quote suggesting sexuality that interests you?  The Sarah Ann Whitney case from his book interests me. There are three documents used to prove sexuality & I dissagree with Todd Comptom on them.

The marriage ceremony does use the words "time & for eternity" but so do they all. He doesn't prove that use of the words means sexuality occured. On the Helen Mar Kimbal case at Kerry Shirts website Todd Comptom expressed the possibility no sex occured there.  So use of  the terms time & for eternity does not automatically prove sex. (FAIR-Links- https://www.fairlds.org/  ) I feel sometimes he speculates way to much.

The 1842 Letter inviting the Whineys over for a religious ceremony does not have Sarah Whitney dropped off alone with Joseph. Concerns in the document about Emma not being there can simply be she was opposed to secret ceremonies.

Joseph Kingsbury did call his marriage to Sarah pretended in a document he wrote.But I think he regarded himself as a surrogate husband to her & mispoke. The word pretended was as close a description of the marriage as he could give. I doubt he kept her company inbetween Joseph's visits.

The answer for your polyandry question is Joseph needed participants in the ceremonies & the married woman could be trusted more than the single ones. I am only troubled by it if existing marital vows were broken in the name of the practice. If the understanding that it was as Joseph Smith 3rd put it "an agreement or association for the world to come" I have less problem with it.  I doubt the twelve or so married women ever lived with Joseph myself.  

Sincerely,

Robert

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Dale, thank you very much for your comments. Some of them are really interesting. The testimony of Mary Lightner would prove somehow that Joseph had sexual intercourse with her when she said in a BYU speech the following:

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."

Isn't this something interesting Dale?. Do you believe in her own testimony that was recorded in BYU?. Melissa Lott Willes testified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed." Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.
Benjamin Johnson wrote "On the 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife."

Can we dismiss all these testimonies?.

In the case you mention of Sis. Kimball, you know she was only 14 at that time which would be understandable why was not intercourse until she may be older.

Now, as you well said, D&C doesnt have any mentions about polyandry, which would suggest for me that was not something allowed why? because D&C have mention of polygamy but NOT polyandry, which I can interpret from it is that God intented for these women to be SINGLE and not married to fulfill that commandment.
Now, why these women who were sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity were also married to Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball later, when Smith died? (even if they were married for time only, because these men were ALREADY legally married to other wives. The dates of the marriages for instance of Heber C. Kimball suggest that in a single month he got married more than 2 wives who were previously married and also sealed to the Prophet Joseph) Do you have an answer for this?.

Now, we can research in ALL books but the best of all is go to D&C 132 to read it and when I read it, in my opinion, there is more than enough prove that these marriages involved sex. I would highlighted the words or phrases in which in my understanding prove that these marriages involved sexual intercourse.

"58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

(My note: How he can commit adultery if was not sex involved?, watch the words virgins there and 'have vowed to no other man').

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

(My note: "for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth" wow, isn't that a prove that these marriages were like any other marriage?)

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

(My note: This verse would prove also why some women may accept the Plural Marriage commandment even though were not very keen about it)

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen"

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

Dale, thank you very much for your comments. Some of them are really interesting. The testimony of Mary Lightner would prove somehow that Joseph had sexual intercourse with her when she said in a BYU speech the following:

Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."

Isn't this something interesting Dale?. Do you believe in her own testimony that was recorded in BYU?. Melissa Lott Willes testified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed." Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.
Benjamin Johnson wrote "On the 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife."

Can we dismiss all these testimonies?.

In the case you mention of Sis. Kimball, you know she was only 14 at that time which would be understandable why was not intercourse until she may be older.

Now, as you well said, D&C doesnt have any mentions about polyandry, which would suggest for me that was not something allowed why? because D&C have mention of polygamy but NOT polyandry, which I can interpret from it is that God intented for these women to be SINGLE and not married to fulfill that commandment.
Now, why these women who were sealed to Joseph Smith for eternity were also married to Brigham Young or Heber C Kimball later, when Smith died? (even if they were married for time only, because these men were ALREADY legally married to other wives. The dates of the marriages for instance of Heber C. Kimball suggest that in a single month he got married more than 2 wives who were previously married and also sealed to the Prophet Joseph) Do you have an answer for this?.

Now, we can research in ALL books but the best of all is go to D&C 132 to read it and when I read it, in my opinion, there is more than enough prove that these marriages involved sex. I would highlighted the words or phrases in which in my understanding prove that these marriages involved sexual intercourse.

"58 Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining thereunto.
59 Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by mine own voice, and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name, and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin, and I will justify him.
60 Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.
61 And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood-if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

(My note: How he can commit adultery if was not sex involved?, watch the words virgins there and 'have vowed to no other man').

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.
63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.

(My note: "for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth" wow, isn't that a prove that these marriages were like any other marriage?)

64 And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.

(My note: This verse would prove also why some women may accept the Plural Marriage commandment even though were not very keen about it)

65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.
66 And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen"

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 5

i sincere believe in plural marriage .why because indeed this is the fulness of times and all things must be restored just like animal sacrifices to fullfil all things.plural marriage is practiced when the lord wants to raise up righteous seed.also what about the widows.it is a fact that  their are more worthy single sisters in the church than priesthood holders,so tell me  what is going to happen to them if they do all they can to find a companion and didnot?i think the lord would bring back plural marriage and who vex lost.it must be practised.  

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 5

plural marriage must be practised to seal all the unseal sisters.as for a priesthood holder with higher authority that can marry your wife ,i think it is better to marry her that lust after her.their must be order in the eternities not disorder.