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Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 10

Wow Gloria, I read ALL your messages. Thank you for all the GREAT information you have put, some of it I need to 'digest' still, as JB mentioned I still looking for doctrinal answers, I still not able to understand the purpose of being married to someone already married and not have  the need for a formal divorce if the person decides to marry someone else for life only. (if the person has a 'higher' authority like Brigham Young pointed out). It is very difficult to understand.
Other thing is that some members of the Church may feel betrayed by the Church, I will give you an example. I joined the Church when I was 12 years old (I'm 28 now) and a couple of years after my conversion I found out about the the blacks and the Priesthood, I thought it was not true (an anti-mormon thing) but I felt deceived since the missionaried have never touch the subject or the polygamy issue either, when I confronted the missionaries about the polygamy issue I got the answer that most members get in Church (that there was a need for men to marry women because there were lots of widows, etc) and historically we can say that it was NOT the reason. When I heard President Hinckley saying is 'something of our past, let's not bother about that anymore' it seems like he's somehow saying it was a 'mistake' of the early Church. Why he cannot stand and explain? What I'm trrying to say is that I find the Church should be more open about these issues, because the people will look for the answers in ALL the wrong places. Why we are hiding this information from our members? what we are afraid of? I know it may be shocking for someone to know all these things, but if they are part of the LDS Church they need to know where are they standing from, even if it's a doctrine not necessarily for Salvation, they still have the need to know everything. In any Church when you enter, they tell  you  all the beliefs but it seems to me that we try to hide this past as much as possible. Why the leaders do not stand and say when someone ask them about Polygamy, 'Yes, this is the Truth and God had commanded it to us!' what are we afraid of? I can understand that not everybody will understand it but to hide it from our members I think is wrong and unfair. I hope I don't sound too strong or judgemental, it's not my intention. I'm just looking for answers.

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

my final comments on plural marriage is that  we are in the last dispensation and the dispensation of the fullness of times every gospel principle that was prevoiusly taught by the prophets must be restored.the day would also come when animal sacrifices would also be restored and must be practised until the lord requires it no more.

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon

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I still looking for doctrinal answers, I still not able to understand the purpose of being married to someone already married and not have  the need for a formal divorce if the person decides to marry someone else for life only. (if the person has a 'higher' authority like Brigham Young pointed out). It is very difficult to understand.

I agree, LDS, it *IS* very difficult to understand, and I don't claim to. Well, some of it makes sense to me. I agree with ashes (and I think others said so also) regarding the restoration of all things in this dispensation. And I also feel very sure that plural wives is the order of the Celestial Kingdom, as the early church leaders taught. I just don't think we're going to find any written doctrine regarding the polyandry. I think the early church leaders considered that unusual  and exceedingly rare practice part of doctrine that was "unlawful to be written."  If it HAS been written, then the leaders of today are likely under the impression (or revelation to be more precise) that is currently "unlawful to be written."  Such things make me wonder what's in the other 2/3rds of the BofM.


As for the lack of divorce, those situations don't trouble me. They never really have.  I think some circumstances of my childhood have probably projected over in this case. Long story. Had to do with my parents' divorce.

Anyway!  Given the times, the persecution the saints suffered at the hands of mobs, and the lack of any help from the US gov't, along with the very strong doctrinal position the prophets took back then that God's command superseded any man-made law, despite the Articles of Faith, it seems reasonable that they would take the position they took. Remember that these were fiercely independent men and women who still remembered, or their parents or grandparents fought in the Revolutionary War -- when a law was unjust, it didn't need to be obeyed, when a gov't was tyrannical, it's authority could be objected to and disregarded. This was the Civil Disobedience mindset of saints who had been tried in the fires of affliction, torment, and unspeakable horrors perpetrated by mobs who were encouraged by government authorities, not once but several times.  Obedience to the laws of the land was necessary only when the law was just, and God's law -- which they had from His own mouthpiece -- took precidence. (sp)  Their attitude toward divorce, at least to me, is understandable within the context of the times in which they lived.

And that pretty much sums up all I think about this topic :-)   I can definitely understand why your troubled. Been there!!  It's a difficult choice they made, and a difficult thing to understand for us. I just wish it were possible to visit with even one individual (preferably Joseph!) and be taught by him regarding all this. Of course, then, according to D&C 132 I'd have to LIVE it, so I guess I'm glad he can't come over and give me a private interview!!!    ;D

Gloria

Page 10 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Thanks ashes and Gloria for such  wonderful messages. Please post as much as info you may want to add for us to study. There are also plenty more LDS threads as hot as these one I'm glad I'm able to discuss deep doctrine with such a mature and nice LDS people! ;D

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

Here are a few quotes from the Gospel Links CD. BTW, Deseret Book is offering the Gospel Links CD for $5.00 when you join the DB book club. That's how I got it. Figured it was worth buying a few books from them over the next couple of years just to have all those resources at my fingertips. Just thought I'd mention it in case someone's interested.

Anyway....  the cite is at the end of most of these quotes

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Ladies and gentlemen, I exhort you to think for yourselves, and read your Bibles for yourselves, get the Holy Spirit for yourselves, and pray for yourselves, that your minds may be divested of false traditions and early impressions that are untrue.  Those who are acquainted with the history of the world are not ignorant that polygamy has always been the general rule and monogamy the exception.  Since the founding of the Roman empire monogamy has prevailed more extensively than in times previous to that.  The founders of that ancient empire were robbers and women stealers, and made laws favoring monogamy in consequence of the scarcity of women among them, and hence this monogamic system which now prevails throughout all Christendom, and which has been so fruitful a source of prostitution and whoredom throughout all the Christian monogamic cities of the Old and New World, until rottenness and decay are at the root of their institutions both national and religious.  Polygamy did not have its origin with Joseph Smith, but it existed from the beginning.  So far as I am concerned as an individual, I did not ask for it; I never desired it; and if I ever had a trial of my faith in the world, it was when Joseph Smith revealed that doctrine to me; and I had to pray incessantly and exercise faith before the Lord until He revealed to me the truth, and I was satisfied.  I say this at the present time for the satisfaction of both saint and sinner. Now, here are the commandments of the Lord, and here are the wishes of wicked men, which shall we obey?  It is the Lord and them for it. Journal of Discourses, Vol.11, p.261, Brigham Young, August 12, 1866

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Now, they suppose that they have got us safely on polygamy.  What about that?  I would say to Congress that if they will pass a law, making it death for any man to hold illicit intercourse with any woman but his lawful wife, we would meet them half way on that ground.  It is not uncommon for men who have not been lawfully married to any woman, but who pass as old bachelors, to have children by several women.  A recent case occurred in Europe which illustrates this point.  Prince Christian of Holstein, who has recently married one of the daughters of Victoria, Queen of England, has what is termed a morganatic wife in Germany, by whom he has several children, yet the first lady in Europe, as Queen Victoria is called, with the knowledge of the fact that this Prince, who proposed for her daughter's hand, was the father of several children by a woman, who to all intents and purposes was his wife, accepts him as a suitable match for her youthful daughter.  The first Court in Europe is not shocked by an alliance of this kind, no more than is the first society of this country by similar occurrences in the cities east.  Men may do as they please with women, have numerous children by them, and take as many liberties with them as if they were their wives, and yet not call them wives, and modern society smiles upon them.  But whenever a man applies the sacred name of wife to the mother of his children, if he happen to have more than one, then the world professes to be wonderfully shocked at the idea.  What inconsistency! Journal of Discourses, Vol.12, p.260 ? p.261, Brigham Young, August 9th, 1868

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Mosiah Hancock Autobiography, typescript, BYU?S, p.2 I wish to write now of the Prophet Joseph Smith. The Lord revealed to this Prophet as early as the year 1831 that in consequence of great wickedness which would come upon the earth in the latter days, it would be necessary for great men to take the noblest wives. The Lord had reserved the most noble of His choice spirits to come forth through a pure lineage, as the noble spirits were not willing to come through a lineage that was corrupt.

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Joseph Holbrook Autobiography, typescript, BYU?S, p.72 My wife Hannah continued keeping school most of the time, summer and winter, which became much assistance to me. We found our own school room firewood, etc. for $1.50 per scholar per quarter. The brethren, the poor, generally paid well in something that they could get. I continued to make hay on the prairie during the hay season which was ten miles from Nauvoo. While I was sowing one afternoon in the month of August, alone, I had been much of the time meditating upon the principle of doctrine of having more wives than one, which I could not so well understand, but still I believed it was true because the revelation of God had so declared it by our Prophet Joseph Smith, when all at once a sensation came over me that I could see worlds upon worlds and systems upon systems and endless eternity of them that no man could number. For thousands of solar systems like unto the one that our earth forms a part seemed to pass before me in quick succession. And I marveled at the power of which all these systems moved in so much harmony for there were systems upon systems moving in their orbit as harmonious as our earth with other planets move in their orbits around the grand center of our system and as space was endless so were the creations of God endless in point of time or duration. And all this is brought about by the revelation I have revealed to my servant, Joseph Smith, and there is an endless exaltation to man if he will so receive it. Amen and Amen. When I came to myself, I was standing in my [field] with the hull of my scythe on the ground which I had been mowing, as though nothing had happened. From that time to the present time, there had been no doubt in my mind that with regard to those who embrace the fullness of the new and everlasting covenant, which I pray that I may enjoy with all my children from generation to generation.

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Martha Thomas autobiography, in Daniel Thomas Family History (1927), p.31 I now speak of a sermon the Prophet preached in 1843. I think it was on Celestial marriage, though he did not give it a name. He commenced with the old Bible, and clear through showing what they had done and how they were blest. He said we were good people and loved him and he loved us and the Lord had made known many great and marvelous things to him. We were anxious to know what they were. He said, "If I were to tell you, the best friends I have, apparently, would shed my blood," and so they did, that is they joined hands with the ungodly and were murderers. A few words to my posterity stating facts concerning the Prophet Joseph, and his sayings. He showed so plainly to my mind that the law of Celestial Marriage was one of the great laws in God's Kingdom. Whenever He had a people that He acknowledged, organized by Him with the gifts and blessings of the Holy Priesthood, celestial marriage was a leading ordinance in that Kingdom. I watched him carefully; he was very careful how he spoke to us. I said to myself, if that was the law of God in the beginning it will be in the ending. After we were dismissed I walked along with Sister [blank]. She said "What do you think of that sermon." I said, "I think it is the truth from Heaven??if it was the law anciently and this is the same God and the same Kingdom, it will be established again, whether you or I live to see it or not." "Well," she said, "I hope it will never come in my day. I do not believe a word of it." Sure enough, she did not live long enough to see or understand the principles or the laws of God in this dispensation. Be careful what you say concerning the sayings of the Servants of God in these last days, for I have seen many fall by speaking lightly of these things.

Well, my dear husband has shut the light off, so I better get myself to bed. :-)

nite

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

Thanks for your quotes, very helpful and insightful. We wish to have access to the CD to do some more research. As for this tiopic it seems like the final conclusion like most other doctrines is this... FAITH to accept and believe the things we cannot understand. You know the age od saying... was Joseph a Prophet? Is the Book of Mormon true? If both questions are true then... 'x' is also true. However, I am like Skousen, I still ask, 'why'? LOL

[offtopic]

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Here are a few quotes from the Gospel Links CD. BTW, Deseret Book is offering the Gospel Links CD for $5.00 when you join the DB book club. That's how I got it. Figured it was worth buying a few books from them over the next couple of years just to have all those resources at my fingertips. Just thought I'd mention it in case someone's interested.

Thanks so much for letting me know. I will get LDS_forever to check it out and see all the hidden charges that we may end up having to pay, because I am sure shipping for us will be outrageous.[/offtopic]

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 10

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Where, oh where to start....

I took the time to read through the entire thread before responding.  I know that there were several questions that various people asked, that weren't answered.

Most of what I am going to say is personal opinion, based on quite a lot of reading.  I am not a scholar, just very interested in lots of things.  So...

One good source for information is:
https://www.kingdomofzion.org

It contains lots of historical documents.  It is very fundamentalist in flavour, though.  Also, as of today, it appears to be down.

I believe that plural marriage is one of the foundational principles of exaltation.  In order for a plural marriage to work, there must be a fully cooperative arrangement within the family.  Since the United Order is based on cooperative society, and my understanding is that the UO is reflective of the Celestial Kingdom, I believe that the Celestial Kingdom is cooperative in nature.

Yes, plural marriage was established to raise up a righteous generation unto the Lord.  Since it was stopped, LDS culture has steadily degraded, becoming more and more like the rest of the world, especially the Christian culture.

I have been ivolved in many discussions concerning plural marriage.  I have yet to see anyone make the case that President Woodruff received a revelation to STOP plural marriage.  The statements are always that he received a revelation, then put forth the Official Declaration or Manifesto.  There is more than adequate legal proof that he, as well as his successors performed many plural marriages after the Manifesto.

One of the interesting points about the end of plural marriage is that the vast majority of the Saints were actively opposed to the practice.  I have heard that as many as 90% of the members of the church were begging the leadership to halt the practice.  Based on this, I believe that the Lord allowed the principle to be stopped, just as He allowed the Israelites to practice only the lesser law.

I don't think that the Church will ever again allow the practice.  When people are truly living at least Terrestial lives, the Church will change drastically.

Finally, I really don't believe that the Church should be involved, in any way, with this discussion.  I think that this should truly be a matter of conscience, a matter between each person and the Lord.  I also believe, strongly, that this is not a matter for the State to be involved in.

I don't practice it.  I am not sure that I want to practice it.  However, I have relatives who do.  I am a product of a polygamous marriage (my great-grandfather).  I know that Mormon culture was much stronger when it was practiced than it is now.

NightHawk

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 10

Thanks for your review. Interesting points you focused on. I am interested to know how being from a line of ancestors that  practised this has affected/not affected you? Do you know of others who chose to practise anyway and still keep in 'touch' with the Church?