Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 2 of 79

I decided to dive into this some more. My - Page 2 - Mormon Doctrine Studies - Posted: 28th May, 2003 - 9:42am

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Mormon doctrine on polygamy Mormon Doctrine on Plural Marriage - This Thread goes deep into all the angles of Mormon Polygamy, the requirement of Celestial Marriage which once encompassed Plural Marriage and the current standing of it with the modern Church. Also deeply analyzed is Joseph Smith's secret practise of it that latter lead to his death. Controversial Mormon Issue.
Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Related Information to Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...
24th May, 2003 - 9:27pm / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... - Page 2

[quote]I think thats where I disagree with you: Im not sold on the notion of polygamy being an eternal principal.  Marriage, of course. [/quote]
Not being 'sold' on the idea would relate to your testimony about the subject. Plural marriage is eternal just as families are eternal, remember that as I said in the first post... a man can be sealed to more than one wife. There are many quotes and references to this.

[quote]But IMHO the specific mechanics are not eternal; While there is that (one) reference to polygamy, the scriptures show far too great a bias toward monogomy to say that the only reason we don't do it now is that it is against the law[/quote]
Remember, that 'scriptures; are more than just the Old and New Testament,  there are many doctrines of the Prophets of today and many of the lost scrolls (Dead Sea). God through Joseph Smith brought back ALL the ordinances and principles necessary for man, including that of plural marriage, which even he struggled at first to obey until an angel with drawn sword changed his mind.



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24th May, 2003 - 9:37pm / Post ID: #

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

I don't know what  it would be like .  because I can't even get one wife now, even thought I do everything I can in the gospel.  but the thoughts of 7 it might be interesting  but scary. I know I wouldn't be lonely any more. and the wives would have to coperate with each other  on many things. like brighams wives.
  One day brigham was getting married and the justice of the peace said Brigham do you take these wemon tobe you lawfuly wedded wifes, and he said yes, and the the justice of the peace said do you women take this man brigham tobe you lawfuly wedded husband? and then you hear I do, I do, I do, I do. and then the justice of the peace said out loud "if any of you lady's on the back row want toget in on this now speak up?



24th May, 2003 - 9:43pm / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall... Studies Doctrine Mormon

[quote]I don't know what  it would be like .[/quote]
Me neither. wink.gif

[quote]because I can't even get one wife now,[/quote]
Keep looking bud.

As for your joke... you are wicked. Brigham certainly did have many didn't he? It's interesting, but who did Joseph also marry? Not much mention on this...



Post Date: 27th May, 2003 - 10:23am / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...
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Page 2 Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

The idea is not always about just sharing the men.  When Joseph Smith was alive, the Lord revealed to him that he must be sealed to various women who were actually already married.  Zina Huntigon was one of them Mary Lightner another.  Mary Lighnter was told by Joseph Smith that she was to be sealed to him, and in agreement she said she would pray about it and she recieved an answer.  She was already married, now keep in mind, that many of the people of the world like to link Joseph Smith's plural marriages all to sexual activity, that is not the case for most of the women that he was sealed to, it is true for some.  In the case of Mary Lightner, she was married to her husband who was not lds, she continued to act as his wife, she was sealed to Joseph Smith for time and eternity, and when he died she was sealed to Brigham Young for time because he was to stand as Joseph's proxy upon the earth.  Zina Huntingon also was married, but sealed to Joseph Smith, she remained with her husband, after the death of Joseph Smith she was sealed to Brigham Young.  A few years later, her husband left her for California, and they divorced so Brigham Young took her as an actual wife.

With that said it is not all about just husband sharing now is it.  Something for the men to think about.  What if the prophet told you that you must allow your wife to be sealed to him?  Now the question is not so easy for men is it!!

27th May, 2003 - 10:38am / Post ID: #

Shall Women Day That Marriage Plural

I would like to do more research on this... where did you get your information from on Mary Lightner and her relations with Joseph. Book and page number will ne helpful. Thanks.

Wait I think you are referring to this:

I was not sealed to Joseph Smith until I had a witness. I had been dreaming for a number of years I was his wife. I thought I was a great sinner. I prayed to God to take it from me for I felt it was a sin; but when Joseph sent for me he told me all of these things. "Well," said I, "don't you think it was an angel of the devil that told you these things?" Said he, "No, it was an angel of God. God Almighty showed me the difference between an angel of light and Satan's angels. The angel came to me three times between the years of 1834 and 1842 and said I was to obey that principle or he would slay me." "But," said he, "they called me a false and fallen prophet but I am more in favor with my God this day than I ever was in all my life before. I know that I shall be saved in the Kingdom of God. I have the oath of God upon it and God cannot lie; all that he gives me I shall take with me for I have that authority and that power conferred upon me."

Well, I talked with him for a long time and finally I told him I would never be sealed to him until I had a witness. Said he, "You shall have a witness." Said I, "If God told you that, why does he not tell me?" He asked me if I was going to be a traitor. "I have never told a mortal and shall never tell a mortal I had such a talk from a married man," said I. "Well," said he, "pray earnestly for the angel said to me you should have a witness." Well, Brigham Young was with me. He said if I had a witness he wanted to know it. "Why should I tell you?" said I. "Well," said he, "I want to know for myself." Said he, "Do you know what Joseph said? Since we left the office the angel appeared to him and told him he was well pleased with him and that you should have a witness."

I made it a subject of prayer and I worried about it because I did not dare to speak to a living being except Brigham Young. I went out and got between three haystacks where no one could see me. As I knelt down I thought, why not pray as Moses did? He prayed with his hands raised. When his hands were raised, Israel was victorious, but when they were not raised, the Philistines were victorious. I lifted my hands and I have heard Joseph say the angels covered their faces. I knelt down and if ever a poor mortal prayed, I did. A few nights after that an angel of the Lord came to me and if ever a thrill went through a mortal, it went through me. I gazed upon the clothes and figure but the eyes were like lightning. They pierced me from the crown of my head to the soles of my feet. I was frightened almost to death for a moment. I tried to waken my aunt, but I could not. The angel leaned over me and the light was very great, although it was night. When my aunt woke up she said she had seen a figure in white robes pass from our bed to my mother's bed and pass out of the window.

Joseph came up the next Sabbath. He said, "Have you had a witness yet?" "No." "Well," said he, "the angel expressly told me you should have." Said I, "I have not had a witness, but I have seen something I have never seen before. I saw an angel and I was frightened almost to death. I did not speak." He studied a while and put his elbows on his knees and his face in his hands. He looked up and said, "How could you have been such a coward?" Said I, "I was weak." "Did you think to say, "Father, help me?" "No." "Well, if you had just said that, your mouth would have been opened for that was an angel of the living God. He came to you with more knowledge, intelligence, and light than I have ever dared to reveal." I said, "If that was an angel of light, why did he not speak to me?" "You covered your face and for this reason the angel was insulted." Said I, "Will it ever come again?" He thought a moment and then said, "No, not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things than that." And then he gave me three signs of what would take place in my own family, although my husband was far away from me at the time. Every work came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing, and Heber C. Kimball the blessing.


Lightner, Mary Elizabeth Rollins. 1905. Pp. 2;3 in "Remarks by Sister Mary E. Lightner who was sealed to Joseph Smith in 1842." (Address to Brigham Young University, April 14, 1905), in "Papers, 1865';1914," BYU Special Collections, Vault MSS 363, folder

This can be found: https://www.shields-research.org/General/Pa...r_Testimony.PDF

My next question is... what would be the purpose to be sealed to someone who is married for time at present?



27th May, 2003 - 12:28pm / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage: In That Day Seven Women Shall...

Hey Brian, welcome back! It's nice to have you here again. I have read before about the women you mentioned on your post...how do you explain Joseph being sealed to married women?. This is a kind of hard thing to understand because most of the information available come from journals.
From Lightner's testimony:
"Joseph came up the next Sabbath. He said, "Have you had a witness yet?" "No." "Well," said he, "the angel expressly told me you should have." Said I, "I have not had a witness, but I have seen something I have never seen before. I saw an angel and I was frightened almost to death. I did not speak." He studied a while and put his elbows on his knees and his face in his hands. He looked up and said, "How could you have been such a coward?" Said I, "I was weak." "Did you think to say, 'Father, help me?'" "No." "Well, if you had just said that, your mouth would have been opened for that was an angel of the living God. He came to you with more knowledge, intelligence, and light than I have ever dared to reveal." I said, "If that was an angel of light, why did he not speak to me?" "You covered your face and for this reason the angel was insulted." Said I, "Will it ever come again?" He thought a moment and then said, "No, not the same one, but if you are faithful you shall see greater things than that." And then he (Joseph Smith) gave me three signs of what would take place in my own family, although my husband was far away from me at the
time. Every work came true. I went forward and was sealed to him. Brigham Young performed the sealing, and Heber C. Kimball the blessing. I know he (Joseph Smith) had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood
up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names."


Most of the women who were sealed to Joseph asked him for a personal witness of what they were going to do (I assume this was very hard for them, the ones who were already married, even more!). Joseph Smith told Lucy Walker for instance, that as a witness she would receive the most 'sweetful feeling she ever felt' but that she also had until the next morning to get that answer if not the doors of heaven will be shut for her forever. Well, you know that she got her answer the same night.
Why the Lord will command Joseph to be sealed to married women? when we know the importance of Marriage for the Lord. What do you all think?.
There is a pretty big list of women sealed to the Prophet and with controversial conextions...like Mary Lightner who was married and who was asked to not revealed to her husband about her sealing with Joseph. Prescindia Huntington Buell, who said  that she didn't know if her child was fathered by her husband or the prophet.  While he was married he also have wives like Eliza Winters in 1831, Nancy Marinda Johnson in 1832, Fanny Alger from 1833-36, and then already-married Lucinda Morgan Harris in 1838.
Please, I would like to get some good answers on this. I do understand the purpose of Plural Marriage and I do agree with your points Brian. But I cannot understand why the Lord will ask the Prophet to be sealed to already married women.



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27th May, 2003 - 12:43pm / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... - Page 2

[quote] I know he (Joseph Smith) had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood
up. I knew he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names.[/quote]
So she is in fact saying Joseph had three 'outside' children? Okay looks like we will be doing some good amounts of research LDS. I will have to do it later though after my meeting.



28th May, 2003 - 9:42am / Post ID: #

Plural Marriage That Day Women Shall... Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 2

I decided to dive into this some more. My location only allows me searches through the net, so if there is anyone near the historic centers of these happenings and can do some physical research I would be grateful. First off, there is a book that seems to document the wives of Joseph:

Todd Compton, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, (Signature Books, 1997)

This site gives a comprehensive overview of the book as well as a positive outlook:

Todd Compton's book, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, is a calmly crafted work designed to bring truth and understanding to this segment of Latter-day Saint history which too often has been characterized by either deliberate obfuscation or shameless sensationalism. Misrepresenting polygamy, especially that of Joseph Smith, occurs most often when it is removed from its historical context. Compton (Ph.D., classics, University of California, Los Angeles), himself a dedicated Latter-day Saint who upholds Joseph Smith as true prophet, has produced a thorough, well-documented work.
https://www.irr.org/mit/sacredlon.html

On the other hand, SHIELDS gives a somewhat negative view of the book citing that many areas of the work has within its pages secondary information given by those not friendly towards the Church:

Observations On The Thesis

A recent example is Todd Compton’s In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives Of Joseph Smith, published by Signature Books.   While I acknowledge and applaud the enormous effort that is exhibited in this extensive collective biography, my concerns are with its thesis as it relates to the origin of the Mormon doctrine of plural marriage.  Objectively, the tone of the book is mild, even friendly.  Nevertheless, several significant passages voice the view that plural marriage was merely a mistaken social and religious experiment.  While there is a general air of fairness about the book, nevertheless, Joseph Smith’s status as an inspired prophet is challenged once again.  In this respect In Sacred Loneliness has added little new to the historiography or understanding of Joseph Smith’s doctrine.  Indeed, it has taken a step back into the 19th century and joined hands with Eber D. Howe, John C. Bennett, Joseph Jackson, William Hall and a host of other detractors who deny Joseph’s inspiration.

Late in the volume we find one of the clearest statements of Mr. Compton’s view of plural marriage.  He said it "was a social system that simply did not work."  Why?  Because it produced horrific trials in the subsequent lives of Joseph’s widows.  And Joseph, without adequate vision of the future, merely provided the theological rationale for the practice, but was not there to experience its practical consequences.

https://www.shields-research.org/Reviews/Rv..._Loneliness.htm

More can be found at the above link where the review does admit that some women were allowed to marry without first securing a divorce from their husbands. It says that these cases were few in number but that it does not give any indication that Joseph did not believe that marriage by the law was of the devil or did not have any good in it.

There is one interesting piece of scripture that we must take into account of all of this:

"Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him...saith the Lord your God." (D&C 132:60)

We could end here, but knowing what really happened invigorates the mind. As I find more I will add.



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