Close Topic Options

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements - Page 3

Karbala said:

No reason to apologize but I still extremely surprised that you never heard the worldwide definition of Holocaust. I know they did not teach you that in medical school, my point in mentioning that is that you are an educated young man so I just could not comprehend how you never heard of it.

Let me just correct something, not only through gassing but through other horrible methods. Also, not only Jews but gypsies, handicapped people, homosexuals, Russians and the list goes on. Six million of them approximately were Jews and around four million were other minorities.
You are right, he does not directly denies it (he isn't that stupid, after all there is documentation, pictures, videos...he has to be idiotic to deny it with all the proof around) but he plays the semantic/word game to accomplish his agenda of creating DOUBT.

Ms. Lipstadt means nothing, she needs to work on some issues concerning the genocide against Native Americans, it is fine if she believes in freedom of speech but the convention held about the Holocaust was hurtful and a slap on the faces to the many survivors. What is the PURPOSE of the questioning? To prove that the Nazis did not have gas chambers? To make the whole Holocaust experience "not so bad"? Why is it Iran obsessed with Jews?

Looking forward to that reply.

Rather off topic, but... Karbala, we are all adults here. No need to apologize. Nobody is offended. Offense is a choice. I am just very bold and straightforward in my views, I do not sugar-coat anything as you can well see...not to be taken as anger or offense. I can perfectly separate our opinions from the individuals. This is just a very sensitive topic, hence you are getting these type of replies. This is a mature and intellectual forum where you can well expect your views to be challenged just like they are right now. I appreciate that you are taking the time to debate.

Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

I cannot discuss everything that you were asking in your previous post because we are becoming far removed from this topic, but if you start some new threads we can talk about them there. However, I am sure that if we start talking about singular group autrocities that it will just be a tit-for-tat kind of thing, as everyone has acted badly at some point in time during this issue. Plus, we will always have the issue about when do you start the clock on history.

Gassing was only one of the methods used to kill prisoners of all races. There were also firing squads, medical "experiments" for which there are detailed reports and photos, hangings and general overworking and starvation. Again, if you are in doubt, which it seems you are, go to Auschwitz or Dachau and have a look for yourself. You are so close to there an it would be easier for you to visit that it would be for Ahmadinejad to go there. Dachau was in the hands of the US from the day of liberation until the 80's. I believe you are in Wales as your ID says, so it could be a long weekend trip. The camp is pretty open it gives you a really good appreciation for the conditions although I am sure it cannot exactly duplicated the joy of Camp Dachau in its prime. Look closely in the "showers" and you will notice a lack of actual showering equipment as well as markings on the walls that match what fingernails would do if one were trying to claw their way out of the cement showering chamber. There are actually human remains in the ovens designed to specifically burn bodies. It is a quite humbling experience.

You really seem to want to discuss the reasons and justification for the establishment of the state of Israel. Have that discussion. I would say the same to Mr Ahmadinejad as well. It probably wont solve anything, but a appreciation for both sides is always good, which is why I have studied this as well, since it effects the world as a whole. However, I don't see the questioning of the validity of the Holocaust as a pretext to this discussion as warranted or necessary. It is not popular historians that counted the number of dead, it was the military. It did happen and what the popular historians do is to try and come up with theories on why it happened. However, the how and the number were uncovered by the military through remaining documentation, interrogation of the remaining Nazi's and the photos that are definitely worth a thousand words. As a matter of fact, the US soldiers were so shocked and angered at what they found in Dachau upon liberation, that they killed approximately 30-40 remaining Nazi guards and commanders immediately and shortly after than dragged the towns people in to help with the bodies and show them what was going on in there.

Rather off topic, but... Ever wonder what might have happened if the Ottoman Empire had sided with the Allies instead of the Axis? Perhaps Mr Ahmadinejad can have a conference on that one.

No reason to apologize, but you had to expect a reaction at least a little bit like that that Ahmadinejad received for his identical comments and stance. You could not have possibly thought that everyone would have said, yeah that is great...it probably wasn't 6 million. It was probably like 2 million...OR.. you know there probably weren't really gas chambers either. The argument that you and Mr Ahmadinejad are making is purposely to ellict responses like this and the exact opposite.

Approximately, 10 million people died and a majority of them were Jews that weren't active participants in the war...swabbling over the exact head count and methods feels so dirty, unwarranted and disrespectful to those that died and the ones that survived...all of them. Let's say the number isn't 6 million dead Jews and it is really 50% off and is only 3 million. So what does that do? It would still be nearly 50% of all that died in WWII. Again, we go back to what is really trying to be discussed... What is the minimum number of dead Jews that justifies the creation of the State of Israel or how many dead Jews can be called a Holocaust? But in reality, the State of Israel was coming already. Maybe not in the form it is now, but it was coming and they were exploring ways to make it happen.

I still see no quotes where Ahmadinejad acknowledges mass killings of Jews in WWII. Of course he admits that some Jews died, but never really comes out and clearly says that there were mass killings of Jews in WWII at the hands of the Nazi's. I mention this because we are splitting hairs on the definition of doubt and deny. Again, it is all done for effect because he is a clever man. He does give us a fine appreciation for the difference between deny or doubt, which is basically the same as the difference between reject and disbelieve. Mighty fine semantical line....

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements History & Civil Business Politics

This is going to be long embrace yourself.

Personally as far the holocaust goes I'm with you guys. I haven't really studied the history of the holocaust that well but as far as I can tell the mainstream holocaust theory seems to be the most reliable one. BUT that isn't really the point.

Ahmadinejad has presented to you a simple question:
Why is it that the Holocaust is unquestionable in every aspect. Why is it held higher than God or Prophets (since questioning them is OK)? And why are the Palestinians suffering for it?

The only reasons I have seen so far is that it is insulting or disrespecting the victims of the holocaust and that the holocaust has nothing to do with the State of Israel anyway. I dont think we are going to agree on this matter but I will present my view anyway.

Iran or Ahmadinejad is not trying to insult the victims. The holocaust thas been a major influence in the zionist phenomena. I'm not trying to question the existence or creation of the State of Israel in this thread. All I'm saying is that given the implications of the holocaust and its relationship to zionism it is impossible to ignore it and it needs to be academically challenged. The holocaust and zionism in the modern age are so intertwined that to dismiss it is just ignorance.

The reason I brought up Deir Yassin is to show that it is NOT insulting to the victims if someone brings it into question. Rather if it holds true then it should be able to tolerate debate as was the case with Deir Yassin.

I can give another example which is more personal to me. If you think Jews fervountly remember the holocaust wait till you see Shiite muslims remember the massacre at Karbala (where my name comes from). This historical fact has been questioned, denied and some have even gone as far as to accuse the Shiites of perpatrating the event rather than being the victims. Yet we have NEVER jailed anyone or suppressed academic or common inquiries into it.

This is the way I see it and even some holocaust historians agree with me. Since the holocaust is true and the historical evidence is overwhelming there is nothing to be afraid of in holocaust revisionism. People like Irving, Zundel and others (who I think are a bit on the looney side) are no threat if taken on in a professional manner rather than sending them to prison.

Now for the reason why I think Ahmadinejad doesn't deny a mass killing of jews.
This requires a bit of appreciating the Iranian political system of Wilayat al-Faqih. Ahmadinejad is actually a small fish in a big pond.

Given his revolutionary Guard background and conservative tendencies he is known to be a staunch supporter of the Islamic Revolution and the system of Wilayat al-Faqih. This means he answers to a few powerful clerics that supercede him. Ultimately he answers to Ayatollah Khamenei the Supreme Leader. There is evidence to show that Ayatollah Khamenei (who is basically the official voice of Iran) believes in the holocaust. His international affairs representatve and advisor Ali Akbar Velayati confirmed this in an interview in which he replied to a question of whether the holocaust happened he said Yes! https://www.baztab.ir/news/60678.php

Also Irans Un ambassador Javad Zarif a loyal supporter of Ahmadinejad when asked whether the holocaust happened he also said yes. https://en.baztab.com/content/?cid=1747

His foreign minister Mottaki when asked whether the holocaust conference was about holocaust denial he replied with NO!

All of these men then echoed Ahmadinejads statements by saying that the palestinians should not pay for european crimes showing they are in line with his argument.

Now either Ahmadinejad doesnt deny the holocaust or he is a lone ranger. Lone rangers don''t survive very long since the Iranian political system of Wilayat al-Faqih is renowned for reigning in disagreeing voices see former presidents like Abolhassan Banisadr, Rafsanjani and Khatami.

One thing I fault Ahmadinejad with is his lack of diplomacy. Since his days as mayor of Tehran he has been known as a straight arrow and he never softens his words especially on this issue. He probably will never back down since he really wants to push his agenda through and therefore cannot concede anything.

Lastly almost everyone in Iran especially revolutionaries like Ahmadinejad take their ideological doctrines from Ayatollah Khomeini and Khomeini never denied a mass killing of Jews so it would be very strange for Ahmadinejad to deny a mass killing of Jews himeself.

I'm too tired to go on anymore ill stop here.

Page 3 Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

You are correct. We will have to agree to disagree, because I cannot get past your initial premises.

I do believe that Ahmedinejad is intentionally inciting people with his rhetoric about the Holocaust. I think he enjoys upsetting the Jews and western world with this discussion and statements, as you can watch him smile arrogantly in his interviews. Now if you ask him directly is he trying to disrespect the dead Jews of WWII, he would definitely say no and mean it, but he does know that the disrespect is there...he just doesn't care. It is like your not believing in the Holocaust is different from denying it... He isn't trying to disrespect the Holocaust victims, but he knows he is doing it. He is a politician and clever, as I and you have stated before. Also, I still think that Theo Van Gogh would have a debate with you about questioning religion, but he is dead with a note stuck in his chest that basically says you shouldn't do that. One guy makes a cartoon of Abraham and certain sections of the middle east erupt into riots and people are killed. Cartoons poking fun at Jesus and the Pope go out and no riots occur. Why? Finally, the Holocaust only expedited what was going to happen. It was in the works before the beginning of the 20th century and was directed to happen from the League of Nations before WWII. Again, before the Holocaust. It was coming and was poorly expedited because of the need to place the homeless Jews and the upswell of Zionism in their sect. IMO, the Palestinians are suffering not from the Holocaust, but are suffering from 2 things: bad planning and execution of the Mandate of Palestine and bad leadership decisions. Everyone knew that the area was going to breakout into violence if the British left, but they left anyway and the UN didn't rise to the occassion. Perhaps violence was going to breakout anyway and the British didn't want to have to send more troops to control the situation, since they had just spent so much time fighting a war. The UN uses the excuse that the way in which the British left made it impossible for them to send in troops, but apparently that was not needed when it came time to support the Jewish State from dying in those initial months.

Rather off topic, but... I fully believe that in the future...not too distant (decade or two)...the Palestinians will have their own homeland. The unfortunate thing will be that the amount of land will be less than what they would have had if they had accepted the original partition plan and they will have had to suffer through 70-90 lost years and a couple of generations just to take a step backwards.

You tell me their is evidence of Arab and Persian leaders belief in the Holocaust, but again by using a previous argument...they never actually come out and say it. There is a difference! This is why you wanted exact quotes that said that Ahmedinejad denied the Holocaust. So if you want credit for a belief, come on out and say it. Additionally, there is one guy in the "Holocaust Convention" that says that there was only about 2 thousand Jews killed in Auschwitz. This is not questioning or revising...it is denial. He isn't the only one with such claims and he is a promenent revisionist. With numbers like that, the world trade center attack was a Holocaust too... Again, if you want to make changes to the numbers (realistic changes) that is fine, but to go too far from the estimated count that was provided by the documentation, interrogation and admission of the Nazis that were left is callus to say the least and in incredibly bad taste. The physical remains from the camps were also used. Is the number exact? No! But is it 50% off...is it 80% off...is it 90% off? No. But of course, through the discussion we have had about splitting hairs...we will never really be 100% sure, unless we have a skeleton for each head count and that just isn't ever going to happen.

Rather off topic, but... If you give me a story and I make a few changes...that is a revision. If you give me a story and I totally change it...that is a rewrite. When you go to far from the official numbers, you are no longer a revisionist of history. You are rewriting history.

Your other atrocities are truly unfortunate, but the Holocaust happened during a world war. IMO, this is why you see such a global reaction to the event. It effected the majority of the world and was one reason we went to war. Without a doubt, uncontrolled aggression was #1. And because it was a world war, the things that immediately happened afterwards (Zionism) are linked...even if incorrectly.

Rather off topic, but... I am a 2nd generation American. I am actually 50% Irish and have enjoyed studying Irish history as it is rich with characters and fascinating tales of fortitude and perseverance. There are quite a few similarities between N. Ireland and the Palestine/Israel. The British will never just leave N. Ireland. The Jews will never just leave Jerusalem. When both sides finally figure that out and accept it, then you can start working on peace. If you still hold a hope that you can kick the other group out, there will be no peace.

I still say to you, please take a visit there. Gain an understanding for why there is such a response. Because it could happen to another group...genicide is not just for Jews.

Edited: Vincenzo on 5th May, 2007 - 5:51am

Statements Ahmadinejad Mahmoud

God willing I will take a vist to Auchwitz when I have the means. It is not my intention to disrespect the holocaust. Rather I, like Ahmadinejad wish for it to be brought into public discussion so people like Irving can be academically humiliated (like he was with the Deborah Lipstadt affair) and its relation to the israel/Palestinian issue can be explored. I see no harm in it.

That is very very poor evidence and very very cynical.

The Theo Van Gogh incident was unfortunate. It seems you have not read the statements of prominent Islamic leaders regarding this incident or others including the Danish cartoons. THEY CONDEMN IT. Now if you want to get into the actions of the common people then we could go on and on since I can give you a few stories myself. This line of argument is absurd.

Rather off topic, but... I think I'll start another thread regarding the holocaust and zionism since there is no space here.

But they did as I showed from archives in a Persian newspaper. It was your western media which doesn't choose to pick up on it.

Are you trying to outrank one genocide with another? If Shiite muslims allow open debate on what is to us the most saddest and painful event in our history since we are so confident of their evidence I cannot see why western governments or Jewish organisations cannot do the same with the holocaust.

It is true Ahmadinejad is purposely making statements which are controversial. And I don't think he will publicly back down since he has an agenda to drive through. He is at the end of the day a politician. I totally disagreed with the way the holocaust convention was conducted. But that does not take away the principle that the holocaust should be discussed and debated.

Now to leave this issue behind here is a brief defence of Ahmadinejads statement "Israel should be wiped off the map". Firstly I could go into semantics and question whether he really said that but since you guys hate semantics so much l will leave it.

There are many many many instances where Ahmadinejad has explained his words. Unfortunately western media doesn't publicise it very much. To suffice here is his words from Mike Wallace's interview on 60 minutes CBS.

https://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14547.htm

Edited: Karbala on 5th May, 2007 - 3:00pm

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements

Karbala, I'll be honest with you. I think you are either extremely naive or you are just playing along. Your posts defending Ahmedinejads's statements continue to amaze me...

Are you for real? Irving was a special guest in your dear Ahmedinejads's list on his infamous Conference. Why do you think he was invited along with the former head of KKK? Oh yeah, to have freedom of speech, not so? You cannot be so naive!

We do not hate semantics as much as hypocrites and cowards like Ahmedinejadas who cannot come forward and tell it like it is withou playing with words and having people like you interpreting them. The guy is such a chicken.

I won't even mention the statement about wiping off Israel because you will surely (once again) give an absolutely different interpretation than the rest of the world has.

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements - Page 3

Rather off topic, but... Can we keep personal judgemental remarks out of this? LDS_forever if you don't want to answer my arguments objectively then just keep it to yourself there is no need for sarcasm.

I personally disagree with Irving. Maybe Ahmadinejad doesn't. But instead of judging people why don't you provide a rational answer to why they are not allowed to voice there opinion? And don't tell me because it is insulting to Jewish victims. No other race or religion which is confident of the historical evidence behind their history (including my own as I have already stated) sends people to jail for questioning it. Christians don't send people to jail for saying that Jesus Christ dying on the cross is a "myth". Muslims don't send to jail those who deny Karbala or Deir Yassin.

The Holocaust conference as the Iranians themselves said was NOT to deny the holocaust rather it was to give a platform of free speech for those who had none. Several Iranian leaders have said publicly they believe in the holocaust.

Rather off topic, but... As for David Duke I personally believe he is made out to be far worse than the media make him out to be. He resigned from KKK more than 30 years ago and he has since repeatedly apologised and regretted his being part. But that is another discussion.

If after the above reasoning you don't have anything rational constructive to say then don't say it.

Rather off topic, but... I couldn't care lesss what the rest of the world thinks. The western media and its propoganda has brain washed most people in the world and it seems that includes you.

I presented a very simple argument that what Ahmadinejad means by his statement is that a referendum should be held in the region of Israel so the people themselves can decide what they want. If that happens an entity called Israel will cease to exist. Is that so hard to understand?

Edited: Karbala on 6th May, 2007 - 12:32am

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad Statements Politics Business Civil & History - Page 3

My whole point about your statements is simple: You already made your mind about the whole topic (you defend every single statement by this man) as well as you already have an answer to the question you keep asking "Why they are not allowed to voice their opinions?". The question was answered but NOT to your satisfaction. Then, what do you really trying to do?

I have answered that question already, whether is the kind of answer you were looking for, then is a different story.

Yes, of course and you stated you believed it. I don't. Whether several Iranian leaders have publicly admitted that the Holocaust existed is not relevant to the discussion at hand. We are speaking about Ahmedinejad's statements.

I do not know if you see it but you are stating what he meant. You are interpreting (once again)what you think he meant. I read several quotes and definitly he meant what he said: That Israel should be wiped off the map.

Rather off topic, but... QUOTE Can we keep personal judgemental remarks out of this? LDS_forever if you don't want to answer my arguments objectively then just keep it to yourself there is no need for sarcasm. First of all, I do not use sarcasm neither I am making personal judgments, unless you think that your statements being naive are a "judgment" to you. QUOTE If after the above reasoning you don't have anything rational constructive to say then don't say it. Excuse me? I have been here longer than you, trust me I know about constructive posts and I am the one who chooses what to say and what not to say. I hope I am making myself clear on that aspect. This discussion is a hot topic, the kind of statements you make are going to bring statements that you won't like because you are opening a can of worms. If you are not ready for it, then disengage from the discussion.

First of all, I do not use sarcasm neither I am making personal judgments, unless you think that your statements being naive are a "judgment" to you.

Excuse me? I have been here longer than you, trust me I know about constructive posts and I am the one who chooses what to say and what not to say. I hope I am making myself clear on that aspect.

This discussion is a hot topic, the kind of statements you make are going to bring statements that you won't like because you are opening a can of worms. If you are not ready for it, then disengage from the discussion.