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Post Date: 2nd Dec, 2016 - 11:09pm / Post ID: #

ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land
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ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land - Page 273

"My superiors won't be pleased to hear that, but the decision wasn't unexpected for my part. They should know that by now word of their business practices is getting out."

"As for your offer, that is an interesting proposal. I could see to building a life here in such a capacity. I'd have to resign my position with Jovvox of course, and you understand that I would need to know more before making a decision, both about this community you plan to build, and of what you would expect of me. I can't claim to be expecting any unpleasant surprises in that regard, but I'd rather know now if there are any issues that would see us parting ways."

"In regards to the Lyre of Building, I have heard of such artifacts. I have yet to attempt such a project, and will need to check my references, but I believe I am up to the task. Bear in mind the material cost will not be insignificant, and I would welcome your assistance to reduce the chance of mishap."

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Post Date: 3rd Dec, 2016 - 8:09pm / Post ID: #

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Land Stolen Kingmaker Pathfinder ICon

Nodding, I reply, "I hope your superiors understand that we do still hope to have peace and trade with them. As to what your duties would entail as a Magister, you bring up a fine point. Let us gather all of the various individuals that will be taking leadership roles and I will go over what each position entails."

"Someone please send for Maerrun of House Liostruth and Amani of House Numesti. Let each of their houses know that we require 1 BP of support and 4,000 gold from each of them. This will allow us to cover the costs for the Lyre of Building and also have a bit of gold in the Treasury should the need arise. Also, how much longer until we have Akiros released to our custody? We will convene another meeting upon their arrival."

Upon everyone being gathered (Myself, Akiros if possible, Amani, Isa, Jesla, Jhod, Kesten, Kresnik, Maerrun, Mykael, and Theaton), another meeting is called for.

"Well met everyone. We are gathered so that we might layout what each of our roles will be, who will be filling said roles, what will be expected of those individuals, the laws our province will have, and what our general stance will be on issues." I gesture around the table, stating each person's name in turn. "I am sure many of you already know each other by now, but I would rather not have any confusion."

"The three of us barons have spent much of our time in meetings with advisors from Restov. There are eleven roles that every government must have in order to function properly. I will list them each now and later I will give slightly more detail as I list off whom will be fulfilling which office. Mind you that every role is important - failure to fill the office results in a government and its people facing unnecessary hardships. The offices are: Ruler, Councilor, General, Grand Diplomat, High Priest, Magister, Marshal, Royal Enforcer, Spymaster, Treasurer, and Warden. There are a few other potential roles, but none of them are necessary at this time."

"Currently we have three positions available. They are Councilor, Grand Diplomat, and Spymaster. Each role has specific attributes and skill-sets that are best suited to it."

"The position of Councilor is best filled by someone that is wise or charismatic. They should also have a strong local knowledge. Their duty is to act as a liaison between the citizenry and the other leaders. They parse requests from the citizenry and present our proclamations to the people so that they understand them better. They also ensure that the Ruler is making decisions that benefit the community and citizens. Added to that, they are typically in charge of ensuring any holidays we decree go according to plan."

"The Grand Diplomat is best filled by someone that is charismatic or intelligent. They should also be skilled in the art of diplomacy. It is their duty to ensure that our foreign policy is carried out properly with other entities. They are at the head of all of the other diplomats, envoys, and ambassadors and are responsible to represent and protect the interests of our barony with regard to foreign powers. They are responsible for enacting any diplomatic edicts we agree to issue."

"The Spymaster is best filled by someone that is dexterous or intelligent. They should also be skilled in sensing the motive of others. Their duty is to observe the community's criminal elements and underworld, as well as spy on other cities and kingdoms. They should always have a finger on the pulse of the underbelly, and use acquired information to protect our interest at home and abroad. Any time a crime is committed or foreigners visit, the Spymaster should be the one that gives us any potentially useful information."

"That covers our three as of yet unfilled leadership roles. On to our filled roles! The first is that of the General. Baron Mykael will fulfill the duties of that role. He is the highest-ranking member of our military. When we raise an army or navy, the heads of those organizations will report to him. He is responsible for looking after the needs of the military and directing the army and navy in times of war. He is our protector and patriot and will lead the military by being a shining example of what a professional soldier should be."

"Isa will fulfill the role of High Priest. As such she will tend to our religious needs and guide our growth. We do not have an official religion, because we will have a separation of Church and State, so she will act as a neutral party representing the interests of all religions allowed. She will also assist the Councilor in ensuring that holidays are a success."

"The role of Magister has been offered to Kresnik. If he accepts, he will guide our community's higher learning and magic, promoting education and knowledge among the citizens and representing the interest of magic, science, and academia."

"Baron Theaton is our Marshal. He will ensure that our laws are enforced in the remote parts of our realm as well as in the vicinity of the capital. He is also responsible for securing our borders. He will organize regular patrols and work with Baron Mykael to respond to threats that militias and adventurers can not deal with alone." With a grin I add, "I pity those that think we will not personally take up arms in defense of our realm. My adventuring days are far from over. He will also oversee any exploration edicts we enact."

"Jesla has agreed to be our Royal Enforcer. She will deal with punishing criminals according to our laws, work with the Councilor to make sure the citizenry feel we are adequately dealing with wrongdoers, and work with the Marshal to capture fugitives from the law. If it is necessary, she may also grant civilians the authority to kill in the name of the law. Note - this is not the same as killing someone in self defense. That will already be considered legal. More on that later. The Royal Enforcer's ultimate goal is to ensure unrest is kept to a minimum."

"Jhod Is going to be our Treasurer. He will monitor the state of our Treasury and the citizenry's confidence in the value of our money. He will also investigate whether any businesses are taking unfair advantage of the system. As such, he will be in charge of the tax collectors and track debts and credits with guilds and other governments. If we decree any trade edicts, he will be responsible for ensuring they are carried out."

"Our Warden is Kesten. He is responsible for the stability of our realm. As such he will be responsible for enforcing laws in larger settlements and ensuring the safety of everyone in leadership roles. He will also work with the General to deploy forces to protect settlements and react to internal threats."

"As the Ruler I am supposed to be the highest-ranking person in the realm, above even the other leaders. That being said, I depend on each of you doing your best to fulfill your duties and to assist me in making wise decisions. I ask that you help me embody the values of our realm. I and the other two barons will perform ceremonies together, such as knighting individuals and signing treaties. While I am the chief diplomatic officer I will still depend on the Grand Diplomat handling many of the duties. I am the signatory for all laws affecting the entire realm, will pardon criminals when appropriate, and I am ultimately responsible for appointing others to high positions in the government, such as leadership roles, mayors of settlements, and judges. It is my hope that by all of us working together we will become a shining beacon in the region and draw many to join our realm."

"In addition to the aforementioned duties, each person filling a leadership role is expected to do their best to ensure their actions represent our barony positively at all times."

"Next let us discuss laws. First and foremost, I propose that one has the right to do anything as long as it does not harm others physically nor fiscally. The belief in a deity harms no one. They should be allowed to practice whatever tenets of the faith do not harm others nor their property."

"Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and property. If another attempts to take away those rights, the individual has a right to defend their self with as much force as they deem necessary, as long as they bring no harm to others or their property - I feel this is necessary to ensure someone does not drop a fireball in a crowded room and attempt to claim it was in self defense. If someone murders another person, meaning kills them and it is not an act of self defense, they should suffer a similar fate or be banished to serve at the Worldwound."

"We should have a separation of Church and State. We should have no official State religion. Every religion should be allowed as long as their practices do not harm others physically or fiscally. If someone is found guilty of harming others physically or fiscally in service of their religion, I propose they be banished and sent to the Worldwound to be used however the military there wishes."

"I hope these added stipulations will secure everyone's support for accepting the assistance the various churches have offered. If you can think of any additional precautions that will allow the ultimate amount of freedoms for all individuals while limiting the potential harm others might cause, I am attentive and ready to hear them!"

"The Church of Hanspur requested that we respect the Six River Freedoms. I have already recommended a counter proposal for securing their BP. Allow me to go over them again." I then give a summation of what was discussed in a previous meeting.

"What follows is a brief summary of the various proposals we have received and whether we are accepting, rejecting, or counter-proposing:"

Set the barony's alignment as Lawful Neutral.

Counter-proposal - Church of Gyronna, 2 BP - Allow their worship as long as their actions do not break any of our laws. Agree to build an Exotic Artisan district within 3 years.

Counter-proposal - Church of Hanspur, 2 BP - Agree to 1st River Freedom, the freedom of speech but not from consequences of speech. Disagree to 2nd River Freedom allowing an oathbreaker to be killed and instead have there be a way for an oathbreaker to be held liable as long as the contract was witnessed and signed by a government official, also creating a list of all oathbreakers to be readily available in each settlement and updated regularly. Agree to 3rd River Freedom, the freedom of travel and no tolls as long as that land is considered public and not privately owned - ie, no trampling through someone's fields because doing so injures the farmer's crops, effecting the farmer fiscally. Agree to the 4th River Freedom, courts are for kings and all are bound by the law of a specific region. Agree to the 5th River Freedom that slavery is an abomination. Disagree with the 6th River Freedom, we do not support theft and if someone can prove another has stolen their property, they should have it returned through legal means. Allow them to worship as long as they do not break our laws.

Counter-proposal - Church of Gorum, 5 BP - Find out if anyone else in a leadership role is a follower of Gorum and stress their role in also making decisions. "So… is anyone a follower of Gorum? It might help us gain some aid. Mykael is a devout follower of Iomedae and I have no clue who Theaton's deity is, but he has already rejected the idea of converting."

Accept - Church of Pharasma, 5 BP - Build a shrine to Pharasma, never charge the citizenry the highest tax level, and eventually build a graveyard in every town.

Counter-proposal - Church of Erastil, 5 BP - Jhod has already been repairing the old ruined temple and will maintain control of it. It is dedicated to Erastil though. We will be Lawful Neutral that leans heavily toward good. As such we seek to restrict the ability of evil to act while still allowing people freedoms as long as their actions do no harm to others. "What say you on this, Jhod?"

Accept - Church of Iomedae, 3 BP - Agree to lawful alignment. Dedicate a temple at some point. Require armies to reinforce their forces when we are ready to raise them. Also offer the banished to bolster their ranks.

Counter-proposal - Church of Abadar, 10 BP - Agree to Lawful Neutral. Build a bank dedicated to Abadar. I will follow Abadar, as the Ruler it should add some prestige for them and might potentially still secure the 10 BP.

Accept - House Stroon, 2 BP - Share information on happenings and access to public documents. Anything military related or the like is top secret. Basically they get to know what our citizens know without having to wait for the grapevine.

Counter-proposal - House Liostruth, 1 BP + 4,000 gp - Maerrun becomes a ward of one of the barons, is educated, kept out of trouble, and gets a leadership role.

Counter-proposal - House Numesti, 1 BP + 4,000 gp - Allowed to hold land and given a leadership role.

Accept - House Galavriel, 2 BP - Tariff-free trade between baronies.

Need more input - House Drelev, 5 BP - Restrain from expanding too far westward. Defines a border in the Narlmarch Forest 25 miles from its eastern treeline. There's a provision for us to claim one additional hex of forest on the same row as our capital settlement. Left open to future negotiations. Accept until we have no other options for expansion?

Accept - House Medvyed, 5 BP - Do not support House Lebeda. Accept House Garess's offer.

Accept - House Garess, 4 BP - Do not deal with House Surtova. Requested we not give Kesten a major role, he is the Warden.

Reject - House Lebeda, 15 BP - Find a consort for Dame Sorrona's son, help his sister Elanna marry Regent Noleski, and enter an unofficial alliance. Do not deal with any other major noble house except House Orlovsky, and house Surtova once Elanna is married to Regent Noleski. Create an embassy and trade with Mivon and Pitax. Be ready to fight either with the Southern Rostlanders against the Issians or in a civil war alongside the pro-king houses against those that do not recognize Noleski as king.

Reject - House Surtova, 5 BP - Support Noleski's claim to the throne and swear fealty to Brevoy.

Counterproposal - House Orlovsky, 2 BP - Only deal with House Medvyed was to not support House Lebeda and accept House Garess's request.

Reject - House Lodovka, 3 BP - Wanted safe beachhead to be able to withdraw to and govern-in-exile, assistance capitulating to House Surtova, and wanted us to not make deals with House Orlovsky, Garess, or Medvyed.

Reject - Jovvox, 8 BP - Wanted exclusive trade contracts, both on purchasing metals from this region, and in regards to selling smithed goods to here.

Need more input - Oleg, 2 BP - Offers 2 BP if we build a road up to his place within 2 years. With a Lyre of Building, it should only take us 10 BP to build it to him, but doing so will make it more difficult for us to control our settlement as we stretch our attention further away.

Accept - Mivon, 1 BP - Respect their borders and recognize them as a sovereign nation.

Accept - Pitax, 1 BP - Respect their borders and recognize them as a sovereign nation.

Counter-proposal - Elves of Kyonin, 3 BP - Wanted dominion over any elven sites rediscovered in the Greenbelt and ownership of all ancient elven craft-work. We will instead offer them that if we choose to sell any ancient elven craft-work found, they will be the first potential buyer we approach. All finds will be sold at fair market price.

Counter-proposal - Dwarves, 1 BP - Wanted first preference to explore any sites, but not necessarily take ownership of them. We will instead offer them the same deal as we do the elves, but for dwarven finds.

Accept - Edrist Hanvaki, 2 BP - Wants us to build a dance hall that he can operate, then an inn or tavern, and eventually a theater. Offers 2 BP. The dance hall costs 4 BP, so with the Lyre of Building we can technically build the dance hall for free. It should be a nice way to help people enjoy their selves on the frontier.

Reject - Cadense Kensen, 4 BP - Wanted a mansion and stable built. They are 10 BP each.

Accept - Duma the Sly, 2 BP - Requests we not support the false king, Regent Noleski Surtova.

Reject - Koffar Rjul, 2 BP - Wants us to support the deposed prince Tzakiv Korva. "Peace and free commerce with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

Accept - Koffar Buran Evyas, 2 BP - Do not intervene in his conquest and support no one else. As long as he does not threaten our lands, it is not our business.

Reject - Koffar Ivad Rhukov, 3 BP - Lend words of support for any conflicts they start. It is not our business.

"If no one has anything they would like to request be added, let a copy of our laws be sent out to all Houses, governments, and churches; upon deciding a course of action for the few things I requested more input on."

Out of Character: What follows is a list of the key skill for each leadership role. Every 5 ranks put into the skill increases your bonus contributed to our kingdom scores by 1.

Ruler - Knowledge (Nobility)
Councilor - Knowledge (Local)
General - Profession (Soldier)
Grand Diplomat - Diplomacy
High Priest - Knowledge (Religion)
Magister - Knowledge (Arcana)
Marshal - Survival
Royal Enforcer - Intimidate
Spymaster - Sense Motive
Treasurer - Profession (Merchant)
Warden - Knowledge (Engineering)

Here's hoping the separation of Church and State will help ease Jhod's concerns :D

Think of the banished like the Night's Watch from Game of Thrones.

Post Date: 3rd Dec, 2016 - 9:17pm / Post ID: #

ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land
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Theaton agrees with your assessment and adds, "One other law that we may need to think about. While I like the life liberty and happiness law we need to have a law that will subject our citizens to body rights. Such as no one can force themselves upon or force another to preform a service under duress. I want all of our citizens to understand they will be treated equally and with respect. Violent crimes of rape, Assault or attempted murder should have the same punishment as murder and banishment to the world wound. I do not want our citizens attacking each other. I know this can be covered under the life, liberty and property but I feel that this should be spelled out as separate so it is clearly seen and understood by everyone."

Post Date: 3rd Dec, 2016 - 10:17pm / Post ID: #

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Jesla bows to the Barons. " My lords, it is a pleasure to serve you as Royal Enforcer. These laws sound fair and I will be honored to enforce them. I will give my all to keep the populace safe and happy. " She looks over at Theaton. " My lord, I like your idea of going into more detail covering rape, assault or attempted murder and holding them the same as murder. I rescued a woman the other night from a man forcing himself on her. I politely asked him to leave and never return here again. He left . " A hint of a smile crosses her face. " I have a question about assault though. Are you including fistfights and drunken brawls with this? "

After Theaton's answer she looks at all of the Barons again. " My lords, I am a devoted follower of Gorum, our Lord in iron. May I live my life to be worthy of him. Maybe this will help with the offers made by the church of Gorum. "

Post Date: 4th Dec, 2016 - 12:25am / Post ID: #

ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land
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Land Stolen Kingmaker Pathfinder ICon

"A simple assault such as a fistfight or a drunken brawl can be just that. I am talking of more serious assaults that may or may not involve a weapon. IF two people get in a fist fight that can be a simple assault but jumping a person and beating close to death is another matter. Either way the fights should be broken up and combatants sent their way."

Post Date: 4th Dec, 2016 - 2:07am / Post ID: #

ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land
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ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land

Kresnik ponders for a moment before speaking, "This offer from House Drelev. Do we have any knowledge of their reasons for making this request? There must be one. Perhaps they know something of those lands we do not. Might I suggest that we spend some additional effort scouting the area they are attempting to block off before making a decision there? Even with the possibility of renegotiation, I would be hesitant to establish a firm limit to expansion so close to the heart of these lands."

"Also, in regards to the Magister's role in education, are there any subjects that we would prefer, perhaps not to suppress, but to avoid spreading? I am inclined to think that no knowledge is inherently evil, but some is definitely dangerous. Certain aspects of necromancy and daemonology in particular can cause chaos and instability if it finds its way into malevolent or inexperienced hands."

"In addition, I would suggest an alteration regarding your statement regarding laws. There are many ways to egregiously harm a person that have neither physical nor fiscal impact. I should know, I've used some such methods before, in defense of course. Emotional and mental harm can in many cases be considerably worse than anything that can be done to the body. Just don't make the mistake of defining emotional harm loosely enough to allow subjective insults to become legal offenses."

Attached Image Edited: daishain on 4th Dec, 2016 - 5:07am

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4th Dec, 2016 - 4:58am / Post ID: #
Mykael Brewmor
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ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land - Page 273

Ignoble says...

Mykael presents his plan for implementing a legal code with the idea that it would be too unruly to attempt to make a large list of offenses along with recommended sentences or punishments, especially in a frontier region. Rather, Mykael suggests that local magistrates and lords should be responsible for taking each incident that takes place in their jurisdiction into consideration under a general guideline set by the barony. Crimes could be generally divided up under different sections: i.e. Crimes against persons, crimes against property, trade/economic crimes, and crimes against peace and public order.

Mykael offers an example of various types of crimes:

Crimes Against Persons: Murder, rape, assault/battery, harassment, menacing, stalking

Crimes Against Property: Theft, criminal mischief/destruction of property, vandalism,

Economic/Trade Crimes: Fraud, using false weights, use of magic to affect trade deals or financial interactions (I.e. Using a charm spell to get a good deal)

Crimes Against Peace/Order: Disorderly conduct, engaging in a riot, inciting a riot/attempting to incite a riot

Crimes Against the State/Barony: Treason, sedition, attempts to overthrow the government, etc.

Within each type of crime the severity varies from minor to an egregious infringement onto the rights of another. Murder, as an example is an egregious crime and should carry significant consequences such as death or exile; Mykael does not recommend punishments such as life imprisonment as it imposes a significant drain on the society that attempts to maintain a prisoner for such an extended period of time.

Many crimes are minor and may be dealt with by a simple fine or restitution, while other crimes are more major and may require some degree of imprisonment but local magistrates should be given a certain degree of discretion when handing out punishments, for they will know the circumstances surrounding the crimes and those involved better than a codex of laws handed down from the top; and it is preferable that the focus be on rehabilitation rather than pure punishment but resources may not always allow this.

Mykael suggests four severity levels when dealing with crimes (From greatest severity to least severe):

Egregious: Generally only crimes against persons would fall into egregious; things like murder or forcible rape/sexual assault although the council may want to consider the the crime of treason to be listed as egregious. Sentencing for egregious crimes may include exile or even the death penalty

Major: Assault with a deadly weapon (Including magic), burglary, forgery/fraud, unlawful trespass into the dwelling of another, Menacing with a deadly weapon (Real or simulated), sedition, stalking and banditry to name a few could be seen as major crimes and should come with substantial fines, imprisonment, community service or a combination of these.

Minor: These would be crimes that do infringe on the rights of others, but generally to a minor degree; things like minor theft (Depending on the amount), disorderly conduct (Engaging in a bar fight, public disturbance, etc), harassment, simple menacing. Minor crimes could be handled with smaller fines, community service, or short term imprisonment.

While local lords and magistrates should have a good deal of discretion when enforcing the laws and handing out punishments, they should be restricted from punishments that do not fit the severity level of the crime. For example they should be restricted from sentencing someone charged with disorderly conduct to death or severe fines.

Mykael also would like to know how the others feel about things like burden of proof. Are people accused considered innocent until proven guilty (And by what level of proof? Beyond a reasonable doubt, preponderance of the evidence?) or are they generally presumed to be guilty until they can prove their innocence. If they are considered innocent until proven guilty then they should be afforded the ability to post bail based on their income/ability to pay.


"We need to be cautious about who we accept aid from and who we recognize as legitimate" Mykael says "Recognizing a city state like Pitax and accepting aid from them may seem innocent enough, but it legitimizes them and emboldens them in their evil. Their aid is tainted, and we ought not accept it. The same applies with these churches that encourage or support evil. I'm not suggesting we ban any religion from our borders, but I do not think it wise to accept any aid from them."

When the discussion comes to exile of law breakers to the World Wound Mykael thinks hard about this before he speaks "I have a concern about sending criminals to fight the forces of evil. Such a thing could do more harm than good. Evil will not be turned away by men with darkened hearts, only by goodness and light. Only light can overcome darkness. Sending them to the World Wound is essentially a death sentence, and large numbers of criminals on the front lines could actually complicate matters for the Crusaders who are then tasked with keeping them in line long enough for them to be slaughtered by the demonic. I do not reject this concept outright, but I caution everyone about sending anyone other than volunteers or seasoned soldiers to fight this evil."

Post Date: 4th Dec, 2016 - 5:51am / Post ID: #

ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land
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ICon Pathfinder Kingmaker Stolen Land D&D / Pathfinder Archive - Page 273

In response to Mykael's query on the legal burden of proof, "I would say that the state should be responsible for proving the suspected criminal guilty. But I am less certain that bail should always be available. Many individuals care much less about the bail money than an opportunity for revenge or to destroy evidence."

"Perhaps a scaling factor is in order in regards to the issue of bail. What do you think of this? Minor offenses that would result in simple fines and the like do not result in imprisonment at all. More egregious nonviolent offenses can post bail after local constables have searched appropriate locations relevant to the alleged crime for evidence, are satisfied that a search is not necessary at this time, or after 12 hours, whichever time period is shortest. For violent crimes however, bail is not available if a judge can be convinced that the evidence presented thus far is particularly damning. This would not be a final judgement, just a quick assessment of the strength of the case against the accused. This review would come shortly after the arrest, and repeated perhaps every few weeks until the case is taken to court."

When he comments on penal service at the world wound, "I don't quite agree. Force of arms, regardless of the heart of the wielder, can be made to serve the cause of good. Just as evil can often be committed by good people. I doubt as well that such men will act as a true foil to this enemy, but they may very well clear the way for others. Perhaps they might even surprise both of us, and find redemption on that path."

"This would indeed be a death sentence, but presumably, the only individuals we would send are those who choose that fate over the alternative. Not much of a choice in regards to those we would otherwise execute, but at least their death might serve a purpose."

Attached Image Edited: daishain on 4th Dec, 2016 - 5:55am

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