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Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2: Rivers Run Red - Page 57

"I am not being one to speak with just emotions. I speak as I have always viewed nature. I have no issues with those of flesh and blood who prove to us that they can be peaceful. I state as fact as we have met with many others would consider enemies or violent towards others but have agreed to adhere to our laws. When I stated the laws I was speaking about bodied breathing souls. I did not think I would have to add in a stipulation for the undead who I will always view as being soulless and bodiless. They have no way to see reason and exist because of foul magic. If an amendment is warranted I would agree to it stating that this law is for all abled bodied of flesh and blood. I will not include the undead if I broke our law that you say covers the undead then I disagree for I never would have thought one would include them. If that is what you wish then I will remove myself from being marshal as I would no longer to effectively do my job." Theaton states.

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"So far you are the only one that seems to have no way to see reason, my friend. Speak not of facts when you readily ignore actual facts. Feelings are subjective, facts are objective. They are not subject to emotions, opinions, or personal feelings. They are quantifiable and measurable. I readily agree with you that we should make an addendum stating that mindless undead are to be destroyed. Often times a soul has been bound against its will to animate the body. Because of this, the body remains mindless. If, however, someone has been cursed with such an affliction and they have their mind in tact, should we not instead seek to help them if they want? Their existence harms no one ultimately, unless they personally seek to harm someone. Regardless - I am tired of your ultimatums. Every time you do not get handed your way, you make one. It grows old."

Out of Character:
So ICon, seeing as this is a kingdom builder game - how will this work out if Theaton were to leave? It seems likely that KNtoran and Kyrroeth are coordinating doing so.

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2: Rivers Run Red Archive Pathfinder / D&D

Ignoble says...

"There are of course exceptions to nearly every rule, but when dealing with creatures like undead or devils it must be understood that the anecdotal evidence you provided is extremely rare… we're talking one in millions if not billions and that's not very good odds for staking the safety the realm on. We have an obligation as leaders to provide for the safety and protection of our citizens. I will not suffer the presence of demons, devils, or undead. If one of those rare exceptions comes along, I do not sense evil in them, and they offer no threat, then I will take that under consideration but the odds of that happening are slim to none."

Mykael begins to show signs of frustration despite his attempts to maintain composure, but he manages to keep his voice calm as he continues "What you have Kyra are tales spoken of in your homeland, but no real evidence to back up that claim. Even if you did have more direct evidence, again I would say that you're talking about a one in a billion exception to the rule. You want to see what demons are like roaming around a territory go the World Wound and see for yourself; stay your hand trying to determine if each individual demon is truly evil or if they can be redeemed at your own peril while you are there. You want to know the evils that devils can do if left unchecked, go to Cheliax. Weretigers and werewolves… when encountered many of them are typically evil but can we say that they are evil by their very nature? I don’t know.

Many kobolds and orcs are evil, then again so are many humans, but they are not necessarily evil by their very nature like a devil or a demon is. I would submit that the natural law would suggest that demons, devils, and undead are not within the realm of the common good in any way and are by their nature disordered and unnatural.”

Mykael looks to Theaton and Jesla “To be fair, however, I do not think that Archival was suggesting that we should have allowed Devik’s existence to continue, but he saw a potentially different way of ridding the realm of that evil beyond simply striking at it with violence.” Looking back to Archival “Still, I hold that Theaton committed no major crime against a person, as this creature was not a person, it was undead. Just as I would submit that smiting a demon is not a crime against a person because it’s not a person, it’s a demon.”

Mykael looks around the room at those present with a somber look "But I am afraid that I must stand with Theaton and Jesla in saying that I cannot, in good conscience, be a leader of a Kingdom that would put its people at such great risk by allowing such unnatural evils to remain until it can be confirmed that they are a threat. As I said before, by their very nature they are a threat to all good people. I am not suggesting that we need to immediately resort to violence to eliminate these threats, each must be considered individually as to the best means of eliminating the threat that they may pose; they do need to be dealt with. Again, I’m not so sure that Archival is suggesting that we allow demon, devils, and undead to roam unchecked within our borders, but I do think you walk a dangerous line when you attempt to consider such beings as citizens or even persons under the law.

I will agree with you Archival, however, that issues of jurisdiction should be approached differently when dealing with any lawless and unclaimed lands that we happen to be travelling through since there are some laws that one could consider universal, and it would be a grave dereliction of duty to ignore those violations simply because they are committed outside of our jurisdiction. Things like murder, banditry, etc.”

Mykael gives Archival a look of sorrow and resignation “You are correct, Archival, that this did not need to be public, but it is public now and trying to hold the meeting behind closed doors at this point will only fuel gossip and spawn rumor. I think we need to get this resolved in the open now.”.

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Listening to Mykael's, I nod. “I respect your stance and I can agree to those terms. Basically, we would take a stance of 'we are willing to accept you, but only if you have proven to offer no threat' - yes? I think it strikes a fair enough balance that I will present no further argument on the matter. You are correct to think I was not suggesting we allow evil to roam unchecked within our borders. That was merely a strawman argument presented by others. It grossly mischaracterized my actual position on the matter in a vain attempt to save face. As long as you are willing to take additional information into consideration beyond race, color, or creed, I am happy."

Edited: Diarmadhim on 3rd Mar, 2017 - 6:11pm

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Kresnik says, "I am fully in support of a clause that defines the laws as covering only beings that have a soul and are capable of reason."

"What we hope for you to understand is that those conditions can be found in unexpected places."

"To the best of our knowledge, the being we encountered was indeed Davik Nettles, a civilian of these lands who may not have been entirely innocent, but had not acted in a manner that justified an assault. His soul and reason were battered but intact."

"Don't get me wrong. Davik did not belong on this plane, or in our kingdom for that matter. And the same goes for any other intelligent undead we may encounter. The laws of death are there for a reason, and supersede any we make. But the crime wasn't his, and he was a victim that needed aid."

"A note of caution is also needed in regards to fiends and other outsiders. While I think redemption may be possible, like Mykael I feel the odds are incredibly low. Especially given that creatures such as succubi are masters of deception, I would never suggest allowing such a creature to be a part of this kingdom in the absence of divine intervention."

"By all means, act appropriately to threats, but if there's reason to doubt that there actually is a threat, and confirming it risks little… "

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2: Rivers Run Red

I nod again at Kresnik's words. "Agreed! So, can we please all settle down and move on to more important matters - like continuing the Edict Phase of our meeting?"

Out of Character: ... Anyone know what the date is in game? I think I might have missed Archival's birthday (Arodus 11)!

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2 Rivers Run Red - Page 57

Theaton looks about the room, "I agree that going forward we amend the law. So it states that any with soul and reason are included in the law those of devils, demons and soulless undead shall be exterminated." I still am sure the Davik was a threat but going forward I will do my best to leave off violence if they appear to be harmless to the realm. And yes let this matter now rest and let us get on with the rest of our business."

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2 Rivers Run Red D&D / Pathfinder Archive - Page 57

Jesla listens to all being said. She frowns upon hearing Archival state that most weretigers are evil. " My lord, there is a big difference between weretigers and demons or undead. You say that weretigers are usually evil. Mykael tried to detect evil within me. There was none. Any demon that he encounters or undead will register as evil. That's the easiest way for me to keep them seperated. If we come across a demon that does not give off an evil aura I'm more than happy to speak with them. If I had showed as evil to Mykael I understand if I was struck down at that point. "

Jesla thinks for a moment. " This has been a good discussion. I like the changes that we are talking about. A lot of this happened because we encountered a situation that was beyond what laws had been discussed thus far. Having this discussion and working this out can only be a good thing. "She takes her seat.

Edited: Kyrroeth on 3rd Mar, 2017 - 10:19pm