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Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2: Rivers Run Red - Page 56

Theaton stands back up. "I have to say I agree with Jesla about trolls. I would not want anyone in this kingdom to be subject to a troll even if they say they will follow our laws. I do not think a leopard can change its spots any more than a troll can be peaceful. I also will stand on my words that the undead have no soul and as such they can not be part of this kingdom due to being soulless. If you wish to have the undead be part of this kingdom then I myself can not be a part of this kingdom as it goes against the very laws of nature that I hold dear and close."

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Ignoble says...

Mykael addressed the gathering “We cannot extend our laws to areas we intend on claiming, but have not yet claimed; by that standard any realm that looked upon our small kingdom with the intent to eventually claim our territory for their own could enforce their own laws here and use any laws that we have which contradict theirs as a pretext for invasion. We do not have jurisdiction over the law outside of our own borders.

As to whom our laws apply; The undead are unnatural abominations and by their nature are a threat to all civilized people. Do we allow demons and devils to inhabit our lands? Shall we fall to the same fate as Cheliax and be overrun by diabolical influences because we refuse to act until they show some sort of overt aggression? When dealing with devils in particular, by the time they are overtly aggressive it is too late. There has to be some common sense here when dealing with evil.

As Jesla and Kresnik stated, some creatures are naturally evil and destructive; they threaten any and all and we cannot stay our hand against them simply because they have yet to strike overtly. Other creatures may be evil but not naturally so and they can be redeemed and should be given the opportunity for redemption. If I encounter a demon I will smite it; I’m not going to wait around for it to strike first… that would be folly.

In the case of Davik I stand by the notion that his very nature was a threat but this does not mean that we need to react to all such threats with violence immediately. The threat of the undead creature needed to be dealt with and ultimately destroyed but open violence was not necessarily the only, or even the best, option. I still believe that it is a mistake to fulfill any task set by evil creatures but fighting obviously did not resolve the situation.

What it comes down to is did Jesla and Theaton break the law? If so did our law have jurisdiction? Wherever we roam are we to assume that we have jurisdiction over the law wherever we happen to be or only within our own borders?

I submit that Theaton and Jesla were in the wrong for disobeying an order from the ruler of our kingdom, but on the other hand I do not recall anyone of us actually pledging fealty to Archival, or making any vows of obedience in regards to him. These things appear to me to have been assumed, but not officially done. That being the case, is it right to punish them for violating an oath that they did not officially take?

By living within our lands a citizen expressly agrees to abide by our laws and obey authority but Jesla and Theaton’s situation is somewhat unique in that not only did the incident not occur within our established borders, but at least as far as Theaton is concerned he shares the same title of nobility as Archival and as such is not Archivals rulership something granted and acknowledged by the other barons? If so, this authority was never fully defined nor were the consequences for defiance of that authority.

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The Diplomat says...

"Actually," Kyra says finally speaking up, at first with uncertainty but then with an expression of determined decision to continue with what she wanted to say. Speaking in a firm tone loud enough so as to be heard by those she had only met today, "In my home of Katapesh, where the faith of Sarenrae,is purest, there is tale spoken of a paladin by the name of Eludecia. She who was patronized in her path to redemption by my goddess from that of wickness."

Knowing there was quite the tale to provide, the young woman continues, "Why is this important? The reason why I speak of this is because Eludecia the Redeemed is a succubus who feel in love with an angel." Kyra new this may bring upset, but those saying demons and devils are irredeemably evil simply wasn't true though such was exceptional in its rarity. More, she may well have much explaining to do in telling of Eludecia.

"It is often spoken of great powers of wizard who can warp and change others for their own purposes. Yet change can come from natural forces as well… such as love," Kyra offers, expecting at least a couple to deny such as possible, as she moves forward in what she has to say, "In that on such moment where she was seeking to tempt mortals as she normally does, Eludecia met a beautiful angel. With this, the unimaginable happens as the demon experiences the unfamiliar emotion of love."

"When she confronted the angel on her feelings, and asked for help in seeking redemption he agreed. Yet, the path would take many years of painful work," The paladin, pauses to catch her breath, yet not for long as she did not wish to be cut off. Continuing, she says, "Where at first is seemed no god or goddess would patron her until Sarenrae stepped forward as was to perhaps be expected, giving the succubus the chance to prove herself."

She finishes with the words, "As though born to evil, Eludecia finding it hard even to understand goodness let alone embrace it, there was as spark of something more there within. She persevered until finally achieving a shaky redemption before then dedicated herself fully to the cause of good and took on the mantle of paladin as a servant of the goddess who gave her a chance by the side of her lover." There was more to be said, but that was the basis of the tale and Kyra consider how many may not believe her.

Edited: Thomaslee on 3rd Mar, 2017 - 6:12pm

Page 56 Red Run Rivers Kingmaker Pathfinder Icons

"While that is all good and a wonderful story I feel it has no bearing on the matter at hand. I ask you this, Do you support the undead running around in this kingdom free to do as they will knowing that they have no souls?"

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The Diplomat says...

"Not normally no, especially undead which is either mindless or soulness," Kyra will allow and agree with what was spoken in before. She will continue to says, "When it comes to such the sword, reversing spell, or cleansing fire is what is needed."

She considers for a moment saying, "Yet in the perhaps rare case where a creature does have a soul, or at least memory of who they are, and are not mindness with a willingness to obey and follow our laws I say give them the chance." Kyra knows more will be said but this will be her view.

"Whether troll, undead, or even devil and demon if they prove they are willing to obey our laws and even go on a path to change their evil nature allow them a chance," Kyra offers, in consideration of the reality that such cases will most likely be far and few between.

She takes on a more mournful look and serious tone as Kyra looks to Jesla, "With perhaps the Enforcer there, and whatever aid she needs, to punish the lawbreakers, betrayers, and unrepentant who who turn not from a path of evil, destruction and harm."

Edited: Thomaslee on 3rd Mar, 2017 - 2:27pm

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2: Rivers Run Red

"Well I will stand by my word. If this kingdom is willing to allow the unnatural soulless undead as members of this kingdom then it is a kingdom I will not be a part of. It goes against my nature and nature itself. I feel that the undead have no soul and no place in this world. I will not give them a chance to exist if I come across them."

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2 Rivers Run Red - Page 56

Jesla eyes Kyra coldly. " You come here from a strange land telling fanciful tales of demonic redemption. This is very questionable. You seem to have sympathy for these demons and undead. What god or fiend do you really worship?" Jesla looks at the group. " I want no part of a kingdom that associates with demons or undead. Call it what ever pretty words that you will. That is enabling evil. I didn't come here to associate myself with those sorts. "

Icon's Pathfinder Kingmaker 2 Rivers Run Red D&D / Pathfinder Archive - Page 56

With a slight sigh, I murmur, "So much for my attempt to courteously consider those matters as private and settled by agreeing to disagree." Caelum pulls a book from his satchel and hands it to me.

“The spirit of our laws matter much more than the letter of them. Generally, the spirit of our laws revolve around the assumption of natural law. Certain rights of every individual are inherent by virtue of nature and can be understood universally through reason. It is that natural law to which I refer to, and not the common law, because the natural law is based on inherent rights where common law is made by man. The overarching theme of our laws, that which I have oft repeated, is that one should strive to 'harm others neither physically, nor fiscally.' Because of that, we do not have to overly worry about inconveniencing those that have no idea about our laws. In their simplest form they can be broken down to a golden rule of doing to others only what you would have them do to you.”

Looking to Mykael I add, “You once told me that you worried about the concept of law that is not tempered with the desire for the common good. In fact, at the time you brought up our choice in which we followed the spirit instead of letter of the law with Piter, Burke, and Akiros. I believe the common good refers to everyone, regardless of their race, color, or creed. That statement of yours was what inspired me to ensure our laws were based on natural law.” I smile as I fondly remember the event. “Your desire for the common good was the driving factor for us instituting order, organization, and a code of conduct via natural law that protects everyone equally - the 'common good' - without favor.”

“It is odd that some of you are now so quick to claim we should not have jurisdiction over lands we are actively seeking to tame. Especially considering not two months ago we viewed our charter from Restov to punish unrepentant banditry by their law of rope or sword as lawful. They do not own these lands, yet we carried out their laws. What has changed to suddenly sway your opinions to the opposite? Make no mistake, that is what you have done. Do not allow fear of making a poor choice to cause you to hesitate and falter. If your issue is with our laws, say as much and we will debate the merits of them and come to a resolution. However, as it stands several of you seem to be purporting a stance of lawlessness in the lands surrounding ours while also arguing that we should protect people from threats.”

“When we were first formulating our laws, Mykael made the point that, and I quote, 'the right to life and property should indeed be held with high regard and vigorously protected by the government. The law should apply to everyone, high and low, and it should be applied equally and justly.' Theaton, you wanted, and I quote again, 'violent crimes of rape, assault, or attempted murder [to] have the same punishment as murder and banishment to the Worldwound.' At the time, Jesla questioned the assault stipulation and it was clarified that Theaton meant 'jumping a person and beating close to death' when he stated assault. Luckily, we adopted Mykael's proposed legal code.”

“When we were out in the field, I did not look at it as Theaton and Jesla should have stopped fighting because I commanded it,” I answer Mykael. “However, we each were given a role and those roles all have their duties that we Barons agreed upon. I can list each of the role's duties again if needs be - I have them in my record here.” I state, placing a hand on the book I have had open and turned to marked pages whenever quoting or detailing a past decision. “For instance, we actually agreed that the Ruler was to be 'the highest-ranking person in the realm, above even the other leaders,' just as you as the General are 'the highest-ranking member of our military,' and that 'we were to all embody the values of our realm.' We also agreed that all three of us barons would perform various ceremonies together, such as knighting and signing treaties.”

“I asked them to because of my viewpoint that they were breaking the law and attacking someone whose only crime was to be different. At worst, Davik was guilty of a 'Minor Crime Against Persons' when he stated, 'I will speak for myself. You are not my tormentors. Throw the Stag Lord's body into the river that I may look upon his death, or join me instead.' Even after you Theaton, technically committed a 'Major Crime Against Persons' he still held out an open hand and begged, 'I seek only vengeance against the Stag Lord. Cease!' That did not occur, though, did it?” I ask, as my eyes take on the look of a storm and my face remains as the stillness before the storm. “No. Instead when I agreed to end his torment by proving the individual that cursed him to undeath had been brought low, with the stipulation that he would plague my mind in my sleep if I failed to do so, you still persisted in your aggression. When a duel between you and Davik was agreed upon instead, Jesla intervened and you said not a word to keep it honorable. We found a being in need. A being that begged for the release of his curse by seeing his killer brought to justice. Instead of seeking to aid someone suffering, you attacked - no different than the very evil you decry.”

Leaning forward in my chair a quizzical expression comes across my face. “Forgive my confusion - but are not weretigers typically evil-natured as well, much like their kindred cursed cousins the werewolves? Are not kobolds typically evil too? Why then, are we arguing about there not being exceptions to every generality? When someone seeks peace, we should meet them peacefully. If they lose their temper and threaten, they still have not actually broken the peace. So by attacking them without cause, are we not the ones guilty of breaking the peace? It does not matter if someone is of a race that is typically evil. If they are willing to live by our laws and bring no harm to others should be our primary concern.”

“This did not all have to be so public. Displaying a little tact and decorum would have been pleasant. That is why even when asked I only brought up just the general topics of where our laws should apply, to whom they should apply, and how to handle duels; that is, until other information was brought to light.”

“Theaton. Why do you insist on arguing from emotion instead of fact? Scholars have shown that while the mindless undead might not have souls, those with minds do.”

“Jesla - you too come here from a strange land, yet we accept you with open arms. I have heard this story before, from my statecraft tutor Sylvie - a cleric of Sarenrae.”

“Could you both stop being so emotional and take some time to reflect? I think we should take a recess for the day and discuss these things further later this evening - in private and much more relaxed.”.