Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs - Page 7 of 9

QUOTE (LDS_forever)I suppose we are speaking - Page 7 - Politics, Business, Civil, History - Posted: 10th Aug, 2010 - 1:28pm

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Post Date: 8th Aug, 2010 - 12:10am / Post ID: #

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs - Page 7

That quote by Dwight Eisenhower above, is there truth to that? I thought the Japanese would have fought til the last man?

Today I was thinking that maybe the reason they dropped the bombs was also to provide a reason to industrialize everything with US input. In other words rebuild but with US services and products. Keep in mind that Japan also suffered flame bombing where all their houses would burn to the ground. By the time the US got into Japan most of the major cities were literally leveled to the ground.

I have heard the argument about the fight would have kept going on and on. I also read about what the Japanese did at Nanking and many may have felt they 'deserved' this.

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Post Date: 8th Aug, 2010 - 12:14am / Post ID: #

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Bombs Nagasaki Hiroshima

Attached Image QUOTE (KNtoran @ 7-Aug 10, 5:49 PM)
While these bombs killed a lot of people very quickly...

Who said they were killed very quickly? Also the consequences of those two bombs still alive today (see my previous posts in this topic).

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Post Date: 8th Aug, 2010 - 9:56pm / Post ID: #

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs History & Civil Business Politics

Atomic bombs kill many people very quickly and then people found out that they also killed many people very slowly. Either way they are just as dead. I think this is the real true horror of an atomic weapon.

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Post Date: 9th Aug, 2010 - 9:24pm / Post ID: #

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Page 7 Bombs Nagasaki Hiroshima

Nagasaki 65 Years Later: A Look Back at the Censored Dispatches of Pulitzer Prize-Winning Journalist George Weller

Today, we remember the US bombing of Nagasaki through the story of Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist George Weller, the first reporter to enter Nagasaki, defying General MacArthur's ban on the press in southern Japan. Weller worked for the Chicago Daily News and hired a rowboat to get himself to Nagasaki. He wrote a 25,000-word report on the horrors that he encountered. When he submitted his story to the military censors, MacArthur personally ordered that the story be killed, and the manuscript was never returned. Weller later summarized his experience with the government censors, saying, "They won." Ref. Source 6

Post Date: 10th Aug, 2010 - 5:58am / Post ID: #

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Bombs Nagasaki Hiroshima

Yes, there were factions within the Japanese government that were interested in surrendering. What you have to understand is that the government was a truly somewhat of a puppet dictatorship with Hirohito being the puppet...but a strong one as he was believed to be divine up and until the point where he actually announced the surrender to his people. For normal Japanese had never actually heard him speak... The ones that pulled the strings of the puppet were the Zaibatsu (businessmen) and the military. The Zaibatsu and military worked together to get Japan into a war, but were not working together at the end.

The Zaibatsu was interested in surrendering. This is totally logical as they wanted to keep their businesses. The realized if they outright lost a war that they might not retain what was theirs at that moment. They also hoped to retain a few islands and holdings that they had acquired just before the start of WWII.

The military knew that they would be wiped out of work and there would be many seeking justice for the Japanese treatment of prisoners and enemies should they lose a war totally, so they wanted to fight until the end. The propaganda in Japan at the time strongly supported the military and they were really the ones in power. It was this fighting spirit that was prevalent throughout the country. They were ready for a land attack coming from the south.

Tokyo/Yokohama had basically been leveled with firebombing. That firebombing had killed more people than the two nuclear bombs...they didn't give up the fight.

One of the major reasons besides the expected casualties from a land attack for the dropping of the bombs was Russia entry into the Japanese theater. The US expected Russia to have issues in getting Japan out of Manchuria, but they were swept out with extreme ease that even surprised the Russians. The Russians had a very large mass troops moving towards Hokkaido via Siberia. They would have taking at minimum half of Japan before the US would have been able to get forces through the south of Japan (where they were prepared for invasion). Russia was in prime position to make another very large land acquisition. Remember, several of our high military leaders were advocating finishing WWII and getting right into it with Russia.

The decision to protect human life needs to be made prior to going into war. Once it has been decided to go to war, you must go with the intent on winning and winning efficiently as that will actually result in less total casualties. Innocents will be killed as a result of the decision to go to war. You will find little morality in war. Should you fight a war to merely stop your opponents aggression...they will rise again another day to fight you. Should you fight a war to win, succeed and treat your conquered horribly...they will always work to subvert you. Should you fight a war to win, succeed and treat your conquered with respect...they may end up respecting you. You could just surrender...that might save more innocents...but that depends on your aggressor. However, if the goal is to minimize innocent casualties, then the best answer is no war.

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Post Date: 10th Aug, 2010 - 6:45am / Post ID: #

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Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs

I understand all thes points but I do not see it as a valid reason for the complete devastation that was unleashed with these bombs. I understand there will be civilian casualties and that this is part of war. I cringe though when I think of how easily it is spoken. If this were New York and Chicago that were obliterated by the bombs our feelings would be much different I think.

Of course they were willing to fight to the last man, what American would not make such a claim. In a very real way we dropped the bombs for them having patriotism. For having faith and honor for their country. One of the very thing that America holds so dear.

My way of thinking is these bombs were released ultimately to show boat. To put a period at the end of the war and declare America as the most powerful. To make a statement to all those others who might oppose us that we are the strongest.

Saying the war would have gone on and on and that they would have fought to the last causing many more American lives is speculation. We don't know for sure if one bomb would have been enough. Or that if one bomb has been dropped on a lesser target if the point wouldn't have been taken.

I have serious ill feelings to America knowing this and other facts about Vietnam and Iraq. I understand our need to stop foreign threats and win wars as effectively as possible but I think these are the tactics used by barbarians and terrorists. Yet we sit behind our credo and claim to be an enlightened nation of freedom fighters. Meanwhile so many lies and cover ups go on to hide the true actions and motivations.

If you look at the cold facts, I mean really look at all of them. Our government lies to our faces on a daily basis about huge facts. When I went to school there was maybe a couple of paragraphs devoted to this topic.

I don't want to put down what has been done by America to defend ourselves. I just have very serious doubts about our military actions. I can't come to terms with sacrificing civilians for the "bigger picture". It just doesn't fit in the image I have of what America is supposed to represent and embody.

Again when I say all this I imagine the horror that these bombs inflicted on a people. They were our enemies true, but I can only guess at the complete horror it must have been for the woman and children effected by this act.

Human lives should be worth more than that, they should be respected more than just a target to bomb, especially by Americans.

Attached Image Edited: Oliron on 10th Aug, 2010 - 6:52am

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Post Date: 10th Aug, 2010 - 9:41am / Post ID: #

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Page 7 Hiroshima Nagasaki Bombs

First of all, there was not complete devastation. We still have Japanese to talk to today. While the city of Hiroshima was destroyed, there were still survivors. Nagasaki was actually only 1/3 destroyed...we more than that to Tokyo and Yokohama with firebombing. You can still go visit Hiroshima and Nagasaki (I have). You, however, cannot speak to a native Jamaican today because that race was totally destroyed.

We didn't have to blow up Japan to show off the the Russians or the rest of the world. We could have done that with mere testing and invited the Russians to come watch. Remember, they were are "ally".

We had bombed Tokyo and Yokohama far worse than what these two bombs did in respect to human life...they did not give up. While you can say it is speculation, what is not speculation is that simple loss of a massive number of civilian lives didn't sway the Japanese before the bombs were dropped. This is not debatable as it is a fact. To say that we lost fewer US soldiers lives as a result of dropping the bombs is fact. If there was a land invasion, we would have naturally met resistance and that resistance would have resulted in more US lives being lost.

Attached Image QUOTE
Miss Kayoko Nobutoki, a student of a girl's high school in Hiroshima was taking a rest with some of her friends beside the heavy fence of a Buddihist Temple. At the moment at which a the bomb was dropped, the fence fell on top of the girls. Under the fence the girls could not move, and when the fires from the bomb swept the city the smoke suffocated most of them. Yet, even as inevitable and as scary as death may have seemed, one of the girls began to sing Kimi ga yo, the Japanese national anthem. The others followed her lead and sang as the smoke choked them to death. Meanwhile, one of the girls found a crack and struggled hard to get out. When she was taken to the hospital she told of how her friends had died. "Shikata ga nai," It can't be helped; oh, well, too bad. Many of the Japanese that died in Japan did so proudly and dutifully for their Emporer. "Yes, people of Hiroshima died mainly in the atomic bombing did so proudly and dutifully for their Emperor's sake," said Hersey, the writer of the book "Hiroshima." This total dedication to the Emperor is most likely what caused the decision to use the atomic bomb in the first place. The people of Japan believed that their Emperor could do no wrong, and that his god-likeness would save them all from disaster and dishonor. In the end this respect they had for him is what stopped Japan from being totally overrun and decimated, but it first caused a decision to be made that would be questioned for eternity.

These were school girls...the populous of Japan was not going to surrender. More people were going to die then was killed with both of these bombs. Even the Japanese that I know here understand that and they hope that there is no reason to ever have to use them again. There are also many in Japan today that do not want a military again because they are concerned about losing control of it if it were created. I really don't think that in this jaded world today that we can fathom devotion like this and when we see anything close to it...it is scary.

I have only one disagreement with the article and that would be that the military agreed only to surrender because of the request made by the emperor. The military had actually held the emperor under a short lived coup earlier in the war. Also, several in the military was actually plotting against the emperor to make sure he didn't surrender....

Source 4

Read a book called American Shogun and it is really scary how close this was to taking place...they only needed one more officer. One more officer falls in line and there is no surrender even after Nagasaki! The book also does a good job of discussing the "options" that were being explored by the Zaibatsu and Doves of Japan. Yes, they had draw up documents trying to get a ceasefire before the US got close enough for a land attack. However, the military was really in charge at the time, so it did not reflect the views of the government. The military had really become totally in charge since the first coup attempt by young officers.

The second bomb was necessary as the Japanese could not agree to surrender. They held votes on surrender, but the military was absolutely against it. They would rather have seen Japan destroyed than to give up as it was a total loss of honor to surrender. As a mater of fact, over 2000 officers ended their lives after the surrender speech was given by Hirohito and before the US forces took over. Even after Nagasaki (which was actually only 1/3 destroyed), the military was still planning for victory.

While I understand your concern over what information is shared and not shared by our government, there is no doubt that Iwa Jima was one of the toughest "2 wk" operations we ever fought. There is no doubt that Midway was bloody hell. They were still finding Japanese soldiers in jungles decades after the war. While I understand your concerns, I cannot agree that the use of such a awesome weapon was used lightly or for mere show. If you read the biographies of Truman, you will know how much this decision weighed on him. He didn't view it in the same light as setting off fireworks for the entertainment and awe of others.

The world was very tired of war. You and I cannot even fathom the feelings of the times and the weariness that war had brought to everyone in the world. By that time, over the previous 30 years, the world was at war about half the time. The wars were becoming more and more difficult.

Most of us only think of Japan in their current sense...economic and non-military. Please read of their actions of the Meiji time period and just prior to the start of WWII.

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Post Date: 10th Aug, 2010 - 1:28pm / Post ID: #

Hiroshima and Nagasaki Bombs
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Hiroshima Nagasaki Bombs - Page 7

Attached Image QUOTE (LDS_forever)
I suppose we are speaking about the many innocent children that have died as a consequence of these bombs as well as other children survivors who have been left either mutilated or with abnormalities....as well as generations later of children born with problems

There wouldn't have been a problem in any generations born after 1946. The only abnormalities were in fetuses that were exposed to the pulse of radiation at the moment the bombs exploded.

Attached Image QUOTE (Oliron)
Furthermore I don't see the point in dropping two bombs to prove a point. If the idea was to show we have the capability of nuclear weapons one would have been just as effective.

When I say this I imagine the multitude of civilians (women and children) who were wiped out from this, as well as the fallout.

The idea was to drop bombs until Japan surrendered. Japan didn't surrender until after the second one.

There wasn't a lot in the way of fallout. These were both air bursts.

Attached Image QUOTE (JB)
That quote by Dwight Eisenhower above, is there truth to that? I thought the Japanese would have fought til the last man?

Well, it is true that he said that in 1963. And it is true that Ike claimed that he opposed the bombs before they were dropped.

As for whether Ike was correct, looking at it in hindsight, he probably was.

But if Ike truly thought, before the A-bombs, that Japan was about to surrender, he was the only one who thought so at the time the bombs were actually dropped.

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