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I think close to 90 percent of LDS in the U.S. are Republican, or at least vote for the Republican candidate for President. I guess we view supporting gay rights and abortions to be more wicked than breaking and entering. (Watergate). The fact is, both parties have flaws but when you look at the agendas, goals and aspirations of the parties, the Republican party more closely resembles the goals, agendas and aspirations of most LDS.

It's not just a matter of the Democrats wanting to provide poor kids the same educational opportunites as the rich. As it stands today, in a Republican administration, poor kids can get grants very easy to attend college. Poor families get free food, (food stamps) and government backed free medical care. So the programs are there to assist the needy. If allowed, the Democrats would take it further, taking away from those that have to give to those that don't. Soon, there is no incentive to go out and work a little harder to get ahead. It's easier to kick back and let a government program support you.

This is the thinking that is growing in popularity in our country and it won't work. Certainly, it is difficult to know where to draw the line. Are we truly taking care of the needy, or are we promoting a welfare state?

Democrat Mormon Democrat LDS

Gaucho has some very good points, and I"m aware that only very few issues has been taken up.
Just one example: USA being the last super power left, ( new ones about to emerge soon ( China & India ) the election of a president in the United States has a world wide impact, and is followed closely around the world, myself included. Americans might not know exactly how much impact USA has for good ( and bad ) around the globe.
Because of the super power status, USA's potential influence, could be indescribable positive if done in the right way.
( And by the way, a welfare state is not that bad - I live in one. - Right wing government, pro. all the things we LDS - including me - disagree upon )

But the headline issue brought up is another.

I still believe, one can be a good faithful LDS member and a democrat / socialist
( NOTE socialist is NOT the same as communist )

Just a comment to tenaheff
Rhetoric questions need no answer.
In debate rhetoric questions can promote a common ground of understanding.
Or they can be used to put a different light on a subject.
My children could have answered those questions, - if I had been in any doubt.

By answering the rhetoric questions, and not the issue raised, and not work toward a common ground of understanding with mutual respect, people just reveal themselves.
For some it seems the real agenda was not to establish an understanding of whether someone could be a democrat/socialist and still support church standards & if every member should be republican.
But to promote the republican idea. Therefore there is no common ground for understanding, all there is left seems to be battle ground.

At least now the agenda is known. And that is fine with me. Just be honest about it.
And it is also fine with me if the conclusion is that - WE DISAGREE - if I may say so.

I"m still positive, happy and smiling and with a goooood conscience.
Life is too short to be worrying too much.

Quote:
[Taking fun as simply fun, and earnestness in earnest
shows how thoroughly thou none of the two discernest.]
PIET HEIN

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat Studies Doctrine Mormon

I don't know to what you are referring, but when you are discussing things in print you need to be much more careful about how you express yourself because tone of voice is not something one can use to help interpret.

I for one find you personally insulting and so will not continue this discussion with you. Let me be clear though, it isn't your position that I find insulting but the manner in which you choose to express it.

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Mason said...

You are assuming we have a prejudice?

Mason said...

That would depend on your frame of mine, but you seem to be taking this discussion too personal?

Mason said...

As a person who has 'been around' I can tell you it can happen, after all we are not living in a righteous theocracy governed by moral issues. Moral issues today can be looked upon as restrictions of personal freedom by the World.

Mason said...

Of course, just like in any political party - no one ever said politics was nice.

Mason said...

Be that as it may, it is your opinion and their view is theirs, no need to be sarcastic about it.

Tenaheff said...

Well said.

Mason said...

You should add to that statement... 'In my opinion', since I do not agree with it. To qualify why I say that... if I were a member of the Nazi party am I good Latter-Day Saint? If you think 'yes' then you may need to review the Temple recommend questions.

Gaucho said...

A good and obvious observation. It all comes down to this in my opinion... 'Which party is going to influence the evil side more?'

Mason said...

Again, in your opinion, but if you read the last lesson from Heber J. Grant I am sure you will find that he disagrees with it.

Mason said...

No one is doubting that.

Mason said...

On a discussion forum you would need to indicate what is rhetoric since this is an international forum. You will also note that this topic is based on the US Democratic system and not others which may be different. We all think differently so the way we react will be different, BUT respect must be surpreme - no sarcasm - no holier than thou - no condescending.

Lastly, this topic has just a bit of interest for me, for those who feel they cannot handle it without being uptight I suggest they do the good thing and not respond. (see the READ ME thread)

Offtopic but, Tenaheff said... QUOTE I for one find you personally insulting and so will not continue this discussion with you. Let me be clear though, it isn't your position that I find insulting but the manner in which you choose to express it. Really I believe that the topic is close to Mason's heart, but there is no reason to be insulted, it is his way and expression, maybe he just needs to get used to the way we handle things here - it is evident from some of his opening posts that he doesn't understand it. Tena, keep in mind we ought not to be easily offended. As for me I do not take offense, I simply put MrSmith on them

---

Okay, now I would like to add a twist to this subject so that the discussion can continue unabated:

There are two major parties in the US - Republican and Democrat, but there are probably better parties out there... the question is... do we cast our vote for those 'smaller' parties if they seem more 'correct' but yet our vote will be 'wasted' because there is not enough to get them elected? However, our vote may be able to help the 'better' of the major two? What do you think?

Really I believe that the topic is close to Mason's heart, but there is no reason to be insulted, it is his way and expression, maybe he just needs to get used to the way we handle things here - it is evident from some of his opening posts that he doesn't understand it. Tena, keep in mind we ought not to be easily offended. As for me I do not take offense, I simply put MrSmith on them

Democrat Mormon Democrat LDS

I just read this thread and I realized that I have found this forum later than I would like to have. I have spent the last eight years as a police officer enforcing the moral will (Laws) of the State of Washington. I am also a mayor and though it is a "Non-Partisan" position, I of course have my personal opinions and ethics. I have to weigh this as I make decisions politically and make sure that I am truly voting to represent the public I serve. with this intro I will have to say...

The general thoughts that...

[/QUOTE] just *possesses* drugs, they can confiscate their property. For example, there are several cases where Miss 'A' lends her car to a friend for the evening, just to run a few errands. Mr. 'B' picks up a pound of marijuana to take to another friend's house. He is stopped, and the police find the marijuana in the car. So, the car is confiscated, and Miss 'A' can't do a thing about it. She loses her car, and insurance doesn't cover it. The police turn around and sell it, and keep the proceeds.

This is not true. At least not in washington state, and I am familiar with many of the Supreme Court decisions that ensure that it does not become true elsewhere.

There is a long process that must be undertaken when seizing property. One of the steps is to prove that the property (car) belongs to the one using it for transportation of drugs or other felonious acts. The burden of proof is on the state and not the suspect.

Second. In reading the thread, I got the general idea that when we talk about the political parties, that we are assuming members of that party not only are aware of the platform issues, but keep current on them. I do not think this is generally true. I know a man that claims he is a Democrat. He is a very good and kind man with a heart of gold. He is against abortion, believes in retaining his rights to keep and bear arms, wants to see a smaller government with less control and fewer social programs including welfare reform.

How can he call himself a Democrat? Because he is a union member and receives all of his political information from the union. They demonize Bush, twist the truth, and blame the Republican party for all of the woes of the working class. A victim of mis-information and singel issue politics. My grandfather is also a Democrat, though he is a Democrat of WWII and has not changed his views since that time, even though the party has. (Or at least in my humble observation)

I do not think that either party is perfect or wholly correct. I do believe that the plank issues of the Republican Party are much closer to the teachings of the church, but I can totally see what the prophet was speaking to when he said that there were many good democrats in the church.

Sorry this post was so long, I wanted to go on and address a lot more of the comments that I saw here, but I should stop here.

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat

It certainly seems to me, that it is the responsibility of the person claiming association with a particular group or organization be make sure they know that that group or organization represents. I agree that far too many US voters do not do this. However, as members of the LDS Church we have certainly been counseled to study the candidates and vote for those who best represent our values. The candidates most definately know what their particular party has for a platform. So, we need to find out what that is, if we are truly going to follow the counsel of our leaders. Then we must vote our own individual consciences. However, we cannot do this if we don't take the time to find out all the facts.

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat - Page 5

I am LDS, an RM, go to church every Sunday, teach my little 7 year old class etc. . . I have never voted before. This will be my first time. I come from Australia where the government is a little more to my liking. For example, when I'm in Australia I can whip out my Medicare card and walk into any doctors office. Very small down-payment and very reasonable prices on medication. Simple and easy. Here, my wife and I have to pay a small fortune every month for insurance that is complicated, and confusing. A lot more stress and that stress will never go away as long as prices keep going up. I suppose the higher taxes in Australia would even everything out in the end but I believe my quality of life to have been higher when I had one less thing to worry about. That equated to me spending less time at work and more time with my family.

On the issues of religion. Of course I don't believe in Abortion. But. . . is it really the government's job to force our beliefs upon the whole nation? WAAAaayy way back when Polygamy was part of the church. . . we believed differently to the rest of the nation and the early church suffered greatly for it. How different it would have been if there was no Fedral law against Polygamy? What if that type of law could have been left up to each state and our government concentrated on education, stimulating the economy etc.

The Democratic party in my mind uses the Government as a tool to increase my quality of life and tries to stay out of issues that don't belong in government. I don't believe it is "Pro Abortion". . . but more "Pro leave it up to the individual and their own personal belief system."

I haven't decided which way I'm going to vote but. . . I'm seriously considering Kerry. Bush to me represents everything that I just don't like about America. His arrogant handling of Iraq. . . twisting the events of 9/11 into a "good vs evil, here are the evil countries that might harm us. . . lets go to war." It is so obvious to me that it is about sustaining predictable sources of oil. There really isn't anything wrong with that. . . why turn it into a good/evil thing!?! The trillians of dollars his administration has spent makes my head spin. Who is going to pay for all that!?! So much for the church's position of staying out of debt! And my little itty bitty tax break I got was almost laughable. How the is that going to stimulate the economy!?! His little "Skull & Bones Society" brings to mind vivid stories over and over in the Book of Mormon of the downfall of the Nephite nation. It just doesn't feel right. . .

If there is something I am missing please. . . let me know. But right now, I think I'm going to go Democrat/Kerry. (Not that it will make a lick of difference mind you. )

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 5

OK. I hope this isn't going to be too controversial. It is not my intent to be so.

Everyone has the right to arrive at truth for themselves; this, almost of necessity it would seem, means arriving at untruths along the way. If we are diligent - if making sure we are right (in a humble way) is important to us - then we let go of those things which are untrue as we discover more.

We are all at different points in that journey and it is critical that we arrive at it for ourselves and not have it imposed upon us. That is not to say that others should desist from teaching and *gently* persuading others to their view (which may or may not be correct), but in the end truth must be not only accepted but understood. And it cannot be understood simply by acceptance; it must be internalized. We must know *why* it is true. We must know for ourselves it is true because then it is part of us and we will build upon it, it is a sure foundation because we know for ourselves it is true. A man may fall from a structure he believes to be unsafe even though he is told it is quite sound, and indeed is quite sound. Only by testing it for himself can he know for sure.

Unless we understand the basic principles of freedom and of government, of human nature tendencies, and, I might add, the methods of those forces in the world who seek to control rather than serve, we will always - in my opinion - be susceptible to being deceived.

In this regard I'd encourage all to take a look at the post (Constitutional Classes) I made today in the downloads forum.

The presenter addresses this very question (I believe it is in part 2) as a matter of fact - and, after much study of my own, I would commend his view.

It thus becomes very difficult to respond to questions such as this thread contains; but I will hear say some things which are, I feel, beyond dispute.

Firstly, the Welfare State/socialism have most certainly been taught by Church leaders as incompatible with the gospel. Secondly, socialism and communism are the same - they are exactly the same philosophy. Even socialist leaders have recognised this. Ezra Taft Benson would often refer to them synonymously by calling them (it) "socialism-communism".

It is certainly true the term has been used to refer to differing degrees or in different places in different times - we should not forget what one of the Ss stood for in the USSR nor that the Nazis were national socialists.

I cannot dwell on this as it would lead somewhere else. However, let me submit my opinion (though I think the facts make it more than that) that both the Democrat and Republican Party are socialist. They are facets of the same group and philosophy divided into two names to give the impression of choice when, relentlessly, they will pursue the same goal. Go compare voting records with what Congressman say - they always follow the socialist line. Now, there are some exceptions (Ron Paul comes to mind as perhaps the greatest example) but they are not (to my knowledge) among those who control party policies.

The tactic of giving the appearance of choice has been one long used by the Adversary. Don't fall for the argument that "if I vote for another party/independent I will be throwing away my vote" - Not so. You have a duty to vote for what you believe is right regardless of popularity. I firmly believe we will be held to account one day for our voting record.

It's a hard thing to accept, but freedom is largely an illusion in today's world. We must be discerning and stop accepting the world's philosophies; alas, more and more LDS every year sympathize with and even support the tenets of collectivism.

Each of us must have our own choice and opinion - but there is still a right and wrong.

Dubhdara.

Edited: dubhdara on 9th Sep, 2004 - 8:49pm