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LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat - Page 7

Wo! The Church has NO Socialistic programs. You have to understand the major difference between Church Welfare and Government welfare.

Government Welfare is Socialistic and wrong because it is done with force. I am forced to pay taxes which are used to pay for welfare.

Church Welfare is GOOD because it is NOT done with force. People give money of their own free will to help others who are in need.

Socialism is done with FORCE, the Church doesn't force.

Yes, the United Order may sound Socialistic but it's completely opposite because it's not done with force. The United Order will be great and successful when it is initiated again.

I understand. I know a lot of good Latter-Day Saints who are Republican and Democrat, even family members. When I say I don't think a good Saint should be Rep or Dem I say it based on my personal feelings about the two parties. Personally, for me to be a good LDS I believe I should not be Republican or Democrat. But others may see things differently than I. I don't look down on them for their choice. I don't believe Party Affiliation will affect a persons salvation, but I believe that understanding the proper role of government will play an important role in these Last Days, in the saving of our Constitution and in the establishment of the New Jerusalem in America.

Edited: Brimmm on 16th Aug, 2005 - 6:35pm

Democrat Mormon Democrat LDS

Brimmm, just for the record I don't really consider the Church's welfare program a socialist program although I think the United Order certainly is. I am simply saying if you consider the support of welfare by a political party the litmus test for whether or not they are socialists then it must be applied to the Church as well. I don't think force or lack of force changes the nature of the programs.

Being forced to pay taxes doesn't, in my opinion, determine what is a socialist program and what is not. I must pay taxes for children to go to school. Are public schools socialist? I must pay taxes for the military. Is that socialist?

We pay taxes because that is how government is paid. I pay tithing to pay for the Church's programs. One could argue I am forced there as well. I could refuse to pay my taxes. I am not forced. I would simply need to be willing to pay the consequences. I can choose not to pay tithing, but I, again, must be willing to pay the consequences.

So, I do not believe that democrats and republicans are socialists because they support public welfare. I do not believe the Church is opposed to taking care of the poor. Therefore, I don't think I should refrain from being a democrat because of their position on welfare.

Supporting social programs does not make one a socialist, in my opinion. I think what they support is taking care of the poor of our nation. That is the same as what the Church does with its welfare program.

To me, the problems with the democratic party that I have are more to do with the moral standards and such. For example, the support of abortion and gay marriage, which are contrary to Church teachings. This is why I question how a good latter-day saint could align themselves with the party not because of the taxes or social programs that the party supports. Those are more personal reasons for voting or not for them. In my opinion...

Edited: funbikerchick on 16th Aug, 2005 - 10:22pm

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat Studies Doctrine Mormon

It seems to me that you need to read "The Proper Role of Government" by Ezra Taft Benson.

You also have a lot to learn about why the Church programs are good, whereas Government Welfare and other Socialistic programs are bad. Start by reading "The Proper Role of Government." Who better to explain it than a Prophet.

Benson explains a lot of things, one of those is how and when government is authorized to tax people, another is who's role is to provide for the poor? Defense is a legitimate expense, but welfare is not... please read it so you can see where I am coming from.

I have provided a link so you won't have to go out and buy the book or search endlessly for it on the net.

The Proper Role of Government

Message Edited! JB@Trinidad: Stop finding reasons to post links to your site. This is your last warning. do not edit a message that has been edited by a Moderator, Bot or myself. I am happy that you are willing to participate and share your view here, but if you would take the time to read the Constructive message post then I would not have to follow you around with these messages as it will tell you how to contact us, what can be posted, how to use external links, etc.

Page 7 Democrat Mormon Democrat LDS

They certainly do. However, the Church now openly supports many of those same socialistic programs and policies, by encouraging members of the Church to go to the State for welfare before approaching the Church (I know, because I have been on the receiving end of both). In general, the Church also supports State intervention in many areas where the State has no business.

I agree completely with with this, as the United Order is completely a voluntary concept, and is diametrically opposed, in all ways, to the basic concepts of socialism and communism.

Actually, I agree with Brimmm on this one. Public schools are completely socialist, as the very concept of public schools is one of the foundational principles of communism and socialism. The Constitution of the United States did not allow for any sort of direct taxation, in fact it specifically forbids such taxation. Levies on commerce, import duties, etc, were the only acceptable forms of taxation.

Now, having addressed these things, I want to point out that with the two major parties, it appears to me that the Democrats are the most opposed to constitutional principles, in that they constantly work to segregate society by using class warfare, tax policies, and socialistic programs to reward those groups who the Democrats like, and punish those they don't like.

Yes, the Republicans also support socialistic concepts, but, in general, they certainly appear to me to be far more supportive of constitutional principles.

Both parties now espouse certain principles that are opposed to the Constitution. But the Democrats almost always support laws and rulings that are most opposed to Gospel principles. At least in my opinion.

Democrat Mormon Democrat LDS

I like what you have said Nighthawk.

About this comment:

Do you believe that the First Presidency are in favor of this? or is it just that some Bishops are telling members to go to the State for help? I have heard of Bishops doing this but I don't know that it is supported by the First Presidency? I would like to know and if you have any sources to this info please let me know.

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat

I don't have access to the Handbook of Instructions, but I have been told that that book now specifically states that members should use the resources of the state first. Sorry, I don't have any reference for this.

Now, I have been trying to figure out how to keep this on topic. Well, I'll stretch here a little bit. Democrats are the overwhelming proponents for social welfare programs. This seem especially true among the members of the church who I know, who are Democrats. In fact, all of them with whom I have had deep discussions have made the claims that state welfare programs are truly the Lord's work, since we are commanded to take care of the poor. This of course disregards the fact that since the state forces us to take care of the poor through such programs, they follow Satan's plan rather than the Father's plan.

So, once again, when members of the Church, or the organization itself, support such programs, it appears to me that they are working in opposition to the Lord's revealed Will.

(See, I managed it after all!)

Offtopic but, Please be very careful to keep messages on topic. It is much better to carry on an offtopic discussion in the appropriate topic, possibly with a link back to the beginning of said discussion.

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat - Page 7

There is a marked difference between socialism and Church welfare, even the United Order. Socialism is imposed by men, and historically it has been men who do not live D&C 121 very well at all. Even in the socialized healthcare of some nations, or the socialized welfare and retirement of the U.S., the plan is usually set up as a popularity-boosting political move more than a benevolent gesture to help the common working family.

In contrast, the Church's welfare programs, including the United Order when it is commanded, are under the direction of God. Instead of one man trying to rule over others, it is a case of commandment and obedience. This is one case where monarchy is acceptable - the Lord is the rightful king, because he is perfect and will always dictate the correct course of action. Therefore, when we are commanded to share our substance in an inspired system of welfare, it is beneficial to all involved. We have the choice to obey or not. Our people could not live the United Order, and there were consequences, but that does not mean that the system was imperfect or uninspired. It means that the people disobeyed the commandment, or acted inappropriately in relation to it, and the Lord took the higher law from among us.

Socialism, as imposed by men, will never be stable because of the pride and selfishness of the natural man, which plagues our modern world. Thus, God's plan of welfare requires purification - it requires us to be a chosen people - because we must choose Him and His way to be chosen of Him and receive sufficient strength to obey.

On the actual topic at hand - YES, you can be a democrat and a faithful Latter-Day Saint. However, I do not believe that anybody can be honest and faithful and vote strictly along any party lines on all issues and candidates. The Lord has given us minds to work out for ourselves the right way to vote, and no party is endowed with all truth, all morality, all intelligence, and all reason. We need to vote our consciences, not our parties.

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 7

I am an assistant ward clerk, so I see the Bishop often, I'll see if I can get a peek at the handbook, or I'll ask him what it states regarding welfare. I believe that us discussing state welfare and the Church's position regarding it helps us develop this topic of whether or not a Latter-Day Saint should be a Democrat, or a Republican.

I can't imagine that the Lord would have us go to the State Gov. first. I always remember being taught that the reason the Church has such a big welfare program is so that we don't have to rely on Government. Also, yesterday I found a Church Pamphlet about welfare and it had a quote from Gordon B. Hinckley where he said that if everyone helps contribute to the Church Welfare System that will relieve some of our burden of paying taxes. I don't know how old the pamphlet was but it did not give the slightest hint that people should go to the government for help.

Offtopic but, From the studying I've done on Political Parties I feel the the Constitution Party and the Independent American Party are best suited to LDS beliefs. The Independent American Party is actually and LDS Party. President Benson even endorsed them.

But still, when I vote I research each candidate, I don't vote straight party.

Message Edited! Persephone: Offtopic tags added. When you are not referring to the subject specifically use offtopic tags (see: 'Constructive Posting Thread')