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LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat - Page 9

Do you really think that espousing the socialist principles of forced "charity" is Celestial in nature? Will such actions really help a person become more Christlike?

In Zion, people will own property. They will consecrate their goods, their property, and their increase to the community and the Lord. They will then receive an inheritance, that they will be expected to improve and increase. Tithes are expected to come from the increase upon that inheritance. None of this indicates that the "state" (the City of Zion) will force people to give up their property, under threat of violence.

Yet this is exactly what the Democrats have espoused since the 1930s.

The most offensive thing about this is that the Democrats are FORCING OTHERS to do their will, by removing their property (money, inheritance, land, gold, etc.) with threat of force, then distributing that property using unfair and unequal rules and practices.

Are Republicans any better? Only in that the Republican approach is generally to allow people to deal with their property according to the dictates of their own consciences. The Republican Party is, now especially, only slightly better than the Democrats. It is now only a matter of degree, not a matter of differing philosophies. Not to mention that in many ways, the Republicans seek to restrict liberty in ways other than attacking property.

Now, considering the "war in Heaven", who was it that wanted to force people to do things?

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Hmm... again!

Maybe as an european I just should stay lurking, not commenting. Sorry for commenting something I don't understand clearly. We here have a long history of political diversity, not just black and white, not just socialists and conservatives. We have always had a gray scale political field. Maybe that is why it is so hard for me to understand people so vigorously defending their point of view as the only acceptable, right, choice.

Personally I will never vote for a socialist and hardly the conservatives either. We europeans are lucky to have other choices too.

But anyway, regarding gospel, I would always choose the side which is paying more attention on poor people. And I just can not see, why using a little force to make the poor open their eyes and find possibilities to help themselves (if they can not see it voluntarily), is the Lucifers way to do it. Everybody needs sometimes a little push to move on. So if the republicans are standing on the side of less fortunate, I will stand with them and vice versa.

Anyway, in my opinion, true followers of Christ can be either side, it is their personal acts that counts.

If there is just republicans, the world might be closer to their ideals, where the most powerful (with most money and most greedy) shows the way things should/will be done, not necessarily the voluntarily chosen way.

Or if the socialists (democrats?) will use the power of the "state" to reach their goals, again not always the voluntarily chosen ways, they both are standing for something, that I can not see as a Celestial way to reach the goals. Well, in both cases, only Lucifer would be happy.

So we need halftones in our political (and religious) field, just have to take care we have the right goals and right tools. Not by any kind of force, just correct use of personal agency.

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat Studies Doctrine Mormon

I can see more where you are coming from now. I lived for 6 years in Europe, and understand a very little bit about the situation there.

As far as standing on the side of the poor -
Democrats always push for higher taxes, so that they can distribute the money to the poor (according to them). However, these programs have been going on for about 40 years, and have not made a significant difference in helping poor people out of their situations. What they have accomplished very well is to create a self-perpetuating group of welfare recipients. Since people don't have to do anything to stay on the "dole", they just sit in place. In fact, in many places, they mock any attempts to provide education or job experience.

The Republicans tend to try to support businesses. A lot of people think that this is just proof that Republicans are all cold-hearted, greedy businessmen. However, the only way to truly get out of poverty is to work. If businesses are taxed to death, there are fewer jobs. If businesses are regulated to the point that they can't make a profit, they die, and there are fewer jobs. Actual data shows that raising the minimum wage ALWAYS results in a significant loss of jobs, especially at the entry level.

To me, giving handouts is not the way to help people. Helping them to get a good education and a decent job is the way to help.

So, going back to my previous argument -
Democrats are always pressing for more taxes, and oppose any tax cut, especially if it might help families. They always push for more stringent regulation of businesses. They support radical environmentalist agendas, that directly take property (real estate) away from farmers, families, etc. They also support all sorts of junk science, even when it is shown to be counterproductive in all ways. An example of this is in southern Oregon, where Democrats have managed to stop all irrigation to farms there, in order to "save" a certain type of salmon. The problem is, that scientific research has shown that their actions are actually HARMING the salmon. But they won't back down and allow the farmers to save their crops.

That is what I meant by attacks on property. The common attitude among Democrats is, the State is first priority, business is last priority, property is at exactly the same level as business. They also claim to support personal liberty in abortion rights, sexual conduct, defiance of authority and tradition, but then deny personal liberty in the form of self-defence, business ownership, father's rights, and support for traditional values.

I hope this helps to show where I come from on this issue.

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This is exactly what the Green Party (also called 'environmentalists') are doing here . Many of prominent Greens here have their ideological background in communism, when Soviet system and the Iron Curtain collapsed (and their ideology was revealed to be defective) fifteen years ago, these communists had to find a new place to hide. They changed their color from red to green. And are trying to save the world again, with old methods.
...

To better understand Nighthawks views, I did some reading at Wikipedia
Libertarianism - Wikipedia

For this forum I chose my political alignment as individual, but if I had to choose some 'real' political ideology , I would be a some kind of liberal. Before misjudging me, please read
Liberalism - Wikipedia.

While studying those pages, it can be noticed that the original Old World liberalism and present New World libertarianism are close relatives. Same kind of ideals can be found. But if I call myself a liberal (judged with European standards) in USA, I will be considered almost a communist in US standards. (correct me if I am not right). Same word, totally different meaning.

I think this EU liberal / US liberal confrontation shows well, how dangerous it is to judge persons based just on names/labels, in a world wide church. I hope those with US background understand better, why I will claim, that a democrat or even a liberal can be a good LDS and even a temple recommend holder. At least here, maybe not yet there.

These comments from a Nordic Welfare State, where I can choose whether to use 'free' government services or byu business-based services with my own money. And If I for some reason do not have money, I still can choose. Between free services and death and not only only between death and death by slowly waiting for somebodys mercy. When people are not yet so mature, that they can show mercy automatically, the state can act as a proxy.

Homo Homini Lupus, "Man is a wolf to man", popular roman proverb by Plautus

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Can LDS be Democrats?
Yes they can and should be. We are to be representatives of Christ and his standards, therefore why should we not have LDS Democrats to promote such ideas in that party? Lets also not fall into the trap that pro- abortion is the only position in the democrat party. It is not and not all Democrats support abortion. Remember their are some republican's that support abortion as well. Gov Schwartzenegger (sp), Mayor Giuliano of NY are two that do. All parties have errors and as saints it is our duty to stand for right no matter what party we stand for.
The idea of morality is interesting, the conservatives generally base morality of sexual norms, while it seems that the Democrats place importance on structural violence, and inequality. In reality both are very important morals. We are to live chaste, and we are to give to the poor and help the needy. Do democrats, take away from us as some might suggest? No they do not. We voted them in office and gave them that power to tax us, and to promote government help. We gave them our consent as a nation. If we do not like such changes, then we vote them out. So its not like communism. We have a say and we can express it in the polls. We essentially give our leaders the rights to do such things. Where in the scriptures does it say that we cannot let the government regulate our giving to the poor, and taking care of the needy? Now whether that is effective or not is up for debate, but we must make sure we do not make any assumptions in scripture regarding this matter.

LDS Democrat - Mormon Democrat

After this recent election I wonder if LDS Democrats are happy with the domination in both the Senate and Congress? I mean do they want that kind of 'power' or were they mostly think of their own State rather than nationally?

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat - Page 9

I know that at least ONE LDS Democrat is thrilled.

Harry Reid, from Nevada. He might become the Senate Majority Leader.

Yet he has been shown to be as corrupt as any Republican ever mentioned.

LDS Democrat Mormon Democrat Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 9

I'm new to this site so I may mess up here but I want to take a stab at this. As an active, temple worthy Latter-day Saint and a member of the Democratic Party, I appreciate a venue to discuss this issue. I've been a member of both the Church and the Democratic Party all of my life and feel no internal dissonance. I recognize that most U.S. members align themselves with the Republican Party but I have never felt that the Brethren or that the Lord has indicated that one party or the other is more approved. Yes, the Democratic Party platform endorses concepts that I oppose but I feel that it is more important for me to remain politically engaged so that I can help change the platform accordingly. I have to admit, it sometimes makes me feel like the man without a country -- most members of the Church criticize me for my political affiliation and most of my fellow democrats can't figure out why I'm LDS. Nevertheless, based on my own experiences of being poor, going on a mission to a poverty-stricken country, getting professional education for work in the social sector, for the most part the Democratic Party represents my values. Does that mean that the Republican Party is all wrong? Absolutely not! I believe that the Republican Party is right on about a number of issues. However, I feel loyalty to my chosen party and will work to help it more representative of my belief, values and standards. I just grateful to live in a country and in a time when we can have free and fair political discourse and still be friends. Thanks for letting me participate in this discussion.