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The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? - Page 3

We really do go for depth here.  ;)

[quote]Oh I see so if you have a Temple Recommend interview and they ask you about whether you sustain the Prophet as a seer and revelator and their general authorities and stuff what would be your answer?[/quote]

Whether I sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator or not has no meaning.  If he is a prophet, he is.  If not, my sustaining him as such makes no difference.

No matter what, I do sustain him as president of the Church, which is a corporate entity.  That position has nothing at all to do with whether or not he is a prophet, seer, and revelator.

I do accept him as a prophet, unless and until the Lord tells me otherwise.  I will gladly sustain him in his position, insofar as I have any ability to do so.

[quote]But let me ask you something, is this something you would feel comfortable talking to your Bishop about?[/quote]

Yes.  Because it is what I really believe.  If that would mean that I would be cut off from the church, then so be it.  I would know that such an action would be unjustified, but I wouldn't fight it either.  The Church, as a corporate entity, has the right to do such things.

[quote]For instance if the Prophet gaves a revelation right now I will not pray to ask God whether it is true or not but I will pray for the strengh and understanding to put in practise that revelation. If I understand well, you would be praying to know whether that's what God wants you to do or not, right?[/quote]

My ideal - that is MY ideal - is that I would pray to know that the particular revelation is truly from God.  I am not sure that I am strong enough to do that.

I have read, many times, the Prophets specifically telling the members of the church to do exactly that.  Starting with Joseph Smith.  Brigham Young pleaded with the saints to do that, NOT to just accept what he said.  Over and over, he explained that if they just followed him, without getting confirmation from the Lord, they would fail.

It is much more than not living on borrowed light.  If we want to enter the Celestial Kingdom, we MUST do this.

The Prophets, including Joseph Smith, taught the fundamentals.  In order to attain the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom, we must approach God ourselves, without the Prophet, and get the information for ourselves.

Joseph Smith told the Apostles, as well as many other people, that he was ready to reveal many, many vital truths, as soon as they were ready.  But he also knew that they would never BE ready.

It is entirely possible, for us - you, me, any member of the Church, anyone in the world, to see into Eternity, to see the same things Joseph Smith did.  It takes preparation, faith, and a willingness to do whatever it takes, but it is possible.

In one particular case, Joseph helped the entire School of Prophets to see and experience both Jesus Christ and God the Father.  At the same meeting, one man was almost translated.

The Prophet will not, can not take us beyond a certain point.  Because of our rebellion, our rejection of several key principles and doctrines, that point is pretty low.  It is actually at a Terrestial level.

In the Temple, we are given keys to open up Heaven, see into it, and become Celestial beings.  It is up to us to use them.  Unfortunately, almost all of us have decided to just 'follow the Prophet' as far as he can take us, and go no further.

That is the message I am trying to give.  Not that President Hinckley is misleading us, or that he would ever intentionally mislead anyone.  But that it is up to us to take ourselves past the point where he is required, by God, to stop.

NightHawk

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[quote] That is the message I am trying to give.  Not that President Hinckley is misleading us, or that he would ever intentionally mislead anyone.  But that it is up to us to take ourselves past the point where he is required, by God, to stop.[/quote]
I believe I got that already. Anyone still questioning this of nighthawk? Just now these threads are going to turn into the Journal of Discourses revised edition

[quote] Whether I sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator or not has no meaning. [/quote]
This is a contradiction in terms with...
[quote] I do accept him as a prophet, unless and until the Lord tells me otherwise.[/quote]
We must remember that when we are being interviewed for the temple recommend it is not the Prophet on trial, or the Bishop asking the questions, but us. The questions are actually set for us to 'think' about what matters most in our lives and what we are doing with the knowledge given to us.

Yes, yes... I know what you are saying, but speaking from the level of 'corporate' sounds too business-like for a doctrine based on Spirit. You may also want to check this thread click here

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough? Studies Doctrine Mormon

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[quote]It is much more than not living on borrowed light.  If we want to enter the Celestial Kingdom, we MUST do this.

The Prophets, including Joseph Smith, taught the fundamentals.  In order to attain the highest glory of the Celestial Kingdom, we must approach God ourselves, without the Prophet, and get the information for ourselves.[/quote]

This part I do agree with.  We are encouraged to pray for ourselves to know that the revelations given by the prophet are true.  In this way we receive our own revelation similar to what the prophet has received and our testimony is strengthened.  We are not encouraged to follow in ignorance.  This is why we are admonished to continually search the scriptures, study and pray... so that we can be open to our own inspiration from the Lord.

There may come a time when we are not the follower anymore, but we are the leader.  The opportunity is there for any of us, whether it's a leader within our ward, our stake, our branch or over a much larger stewardship such as general authorities.  In order to be a leader, such as the prophet is, we have to learn how to receive inspiration and how to recognize it.  The devil is tricky and he knows how to simulate revelations fairly well, that is how many are deceived.  We need to know for ourselves how to recognize authentic revelations... especially if we are ever in a leadership position.

If all we ever do is follow blindly and never seek to know for ourselves that what we are following is truly for god, then we are not being very profitable servants.  If all we have ever done is follow, then we never learn how to lead.  What happens if you've never learned how to seek out and recognize true inspiration and all of a sudden you aren't the one to do the following, but you are the one that others are following?

I bet that President Hinckley learned long before he became prophet how to seek out his own revelation on what the current prophet was teaching.  In this way, when he became prophet he knew how to recognize proper revelation from God and knew he could trust it because he could tell the difference between the real revelation and the fake.

I know this sounds long and rambling... I'm just not sure how to make my point in fewer words.  I just think that it is really important that we not just follow the prophet because he's the prophet, but that we follow him because we have prayed and sought revelation and we know of ourselves that what he is saying is what God wants.

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[quote] This part I do agree with[/quote]
:spock: Did not want to share with us the part you did not agree with then?

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Melodi, great post. I do agree with you too. Thanks for your views.

[quote]Whether I sustain him as a prophet, seer, and revelator or not has no meaning.  If he is a prophet, he is.  If not, my sustaining him as such makes no difference.

No matter what, I do sustain him as president of the Church, which is a corporate entity.  That position has nothing at all to do with whether or not he is a prophet, seer, and revelator. [/quote]

Nighthawlk, the reason I asked specifically that is because that's the question they ask for a Temple Recommend. They don't separate the President of the Church and his role as a Prophet. They ask if you sustain him as a President, Prophet, Seer and Revelator. All of it together but re-reading your answer I will say then that you sustain him in all these offices...but you talked about corporation and all that stuff which is true since he's the President of it but I have the impression that you may sustain him as a the President of the Church but what he has to say is not necessarily revelation from God?. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[quote]Yes.  Because it is what I really believe.  If that would mean that I would be cut off from the church, then so be it.  I would know that such an action would be unjustified, but I wouldn't fight it either.  The Church, as a corporate entity, has the right to do such things. [/quote]

I understand, it's good you have a good Bishop to talk to about these things.

[quote]That is the message I am trying to give.  Not that President Hinckley is misleading us, or that he would ever intentionally mislead anyone.  But that it is up to us to take ourselves past the point where he is required, by God, to stop. [/quote]

I understand and I actually agree with you. My point is that depending who is the person, certain people will not difference an answer from the Lord and their own thoughts trying to rationalize the words of the Prophet. We all have to deal with it, so I perfectly understand what you mean. I am a strong believer in prayer and in searching for answers, after all, that's why I am here for. I have so many questions about the Church that I don't have the answer for and reading your posts and the posts of other people makes me realize that I'm not alone in this journey. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The Mormon Prophet Said So, Is That Enough?

[quote]but I have the impression that you may sustain him as a the President of the Church but what he has to say is not necessarily revelation from God?. Please correct me if I am wrong.[/quote]

You aren't wrong.  I have yet to hear President Hinckley proclaim that anything he has to say is revelation.  This is not meant as a criticism, just that he has never said it.  He has claimed inspiration, but not revelation, at least not publicly.  This is also true of all the Prophets back to Joseph F. Smith, as far as I know.

Unlike some, I don't demand such a statement.  But without that statement, I have to assume that what he says is full of wisdom, but not necessarily revelation.

When Joseph Smith received revelation, he made sure that he got that message across.  So did Brigham Young.  So did John Taylor.  So did Wilford Woodruff.  So did Lorenzo Snow.  And, I hope, we are all familiar with Joseph F. Smith's vision.

NightHawk

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough - Page 3

[quote]He has claimed inspiration, but not revelation, at least not publicly.[/quote]
See reply #17 above. No to sound rude, but I have been in closer quaters with these Brethren before and I can tell you that if you expect that 'info' at General Conference, you are wasting your time, if you want to hear the 'behind the scenes', the 'mysteries' as it were, then you would also have to be 'in that setting'. Otherwise we are as people in the wide and spacious building pointing our finger at what should be.

The Mormon Prophet So That Enough Mormon Doctrine Studies - Page 3

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[quote]
Did not want to share with us the part you did not agree with then? [/quote]

Hmmm.... not sure which part I didn't agree with.  I guess I'm not quite as adamant as Nighthawk.  I can understand a lot of what he's saying and I agree with what he's saying to an extent, but I'm not sure I carry it quite as far as he does.  I believe that we do need to recieve our own revelation, or at least that we have the right to and that we should, to help us to have a testimony of what the prophet is telling us to do.  I don't believe in just blind obedience.  I also believe that sometimes the prophet is just stating a preference and that some people will take that as gospel and run with it.

I've used this example before:  If the prophet were to say that he doesn't have cable TV in his house and would never have cable TV in his house, then you can bet that suddenly people would start exclaiming that the prophet said we shouldn't have cable TV in our homes and they would go out and cancel their cable TV and then feel superior to all those who have cable TV.  However, the actuality would be that the prophet had just stated a preference on his part, not issued a commandment for the church as a whole.... yet people don't understand that and so they go too far with it.

I've seen this happen with the whole earring issue (which I realize is another topic).  The prophet said 1 set of piercings, yet now women are walking around stating their spiritual superiority because they don't wear any earrings.  On the other hand, I stand here wondering what on earth earrings have to do with my eternal salvation.

Sorry.... long response to your short statement.  But bottom line, I do think we need to take more responsibility on ourselves to study and try to understand what the prophet teaches us and not just accept it blindly with our only reasoning being "because he's the prophet".